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on Sept 15, 2023 0:23:31 GMT
Last Edit: Sept 15, 2023 0:32:05 GMT by xkaes
I managed to get a FUJI EFC 49.9mm f5.6 at a good price. Luckily, I found that a 49mm filter screws perfectly into the rear of the unit -- see below. So I use a 42mm-to-49mm step up ring to get the EFC lens onto an M42/t-mount adapter for my cameras.
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on Sept 15, 2023 14:12:30 GMT
Posted: Sept 15, 2023 14:12:30 GMT
Thank you very much - I'm glad you find it interesting! I absolutely get it... adapting Noritsu lenses is a niche among a niche, so I don't have high hopes that a lot of evidence will show up. However there must be quite a number of people around who have either worked on those machines or had some business contact with Noritsu or one of their suppliers mentioned in the article in golden minilab era, so I'm hoping maybe one or two may stumble upon the article somewhere in the future and consider to add or correct a couple of things. I really hope you (and a couple of others here who are experts on Yashica/Tomioka may be able to help me with a couple of open questions I still have regarding the E36 lenses, this thread is about though. For example, do you have an idea during which time period the shared Tomioka factory (Zeiss/Yashica) operated and if there was indeed some form of cooperation/exchange of knowledge between Tomioka/Zeiss during that time or if that is mostly a myth created to push prices of certain lenses? That would be very helpful indeed! I think that biggles3 is likely to have some accurate dates on how long the Zeiss / Yashica partnership lasted. As the "Made in..." stampings on the Zeiss Contax lenses show both Japan and West Germany as points of origin, there were indeed (at least) 2 plants running at the same time and making the Contax lens lines. I'm fairly certain that most, if not all, of the glass used in both country's plants originated in Japan, so not only was the chemical composition of the glass well known to Yashica, but also the composition of the coatings and the method for applying them. Essentially the coatings are ' baked on' at the end of the polishing process, so there's no way to get around them not knowing quite a bit about the materials and techniques. I've read several Zeiss articles over the years that explicitly mention that there were official Zeiss advisors and quality control personnel on-site at the plant(s) in Japan to monitor and improve quality control of their branded products, and I have to assume they would have included people with backgrounds in mechanical engineering and optical sciences, and perhaps even metallurgical if they needed that kind of supervisory roles to be present. Between material and process knowledge, I'd be inclined to wonder if there was any area where Yashica wasn't aware of most of the 'secrets', except for the financial and administrative aspects. Thank you very much! That would indeed make sense. I hope biggles3 or someone else will be able to give a hint at a timeline. As far as I know Tomioka started manufacturing for Zeiss in 1974. biggles3 has stated earlier in the thread: I think production only lasted about 5-6 years and had ceased completely by the late 1980s. So it would look like development and production of these lenses would fit right into that timeframe. That would indeed correspond with some information I've heard from someone who claimed Zeiss was indeed involved in the development of those lenses. I managed to get a FUJI EFC 49.9mm f5.6 at a good price. Luckily, I found that a 49mm filter screws perfectly into the rear of the unit -- see below. So I use a 42mm-to-49mm step up ring to get the EFC lens onto an M42/t-mount adapter for my cameras. Thanks! That's great to know. I never tried using that inner thread. Will have to try if that's also true for some of the other lenses. We also published an early draft of the article on Fujinon-EFC lenses by the way and mentioned your great work and site there. Interestingly Robert OToole found the EFC lenses to be quite weak performers overall in his tests (mainly because of their slow apertures and resulting diffraction issues), but I have been positively surprised by a couple of them. I usually upload all of my images in full-size to flickr anyway, so once I've done a bit more testing, people can make up their own mind about the quality of those lenses and what they might be useful for, I guess. What I can attest to, is that build-quality and the materials used don't scream 'high-quality' lens, but the unique optical designs on the other hand would suggest that Fuji didn't cheap out when it came to the development of those optics. Follow the leader! by simple.joy, on Flickr No more points in this debate by simple.joy, on Flickr Scale down my landscape efforts… or drop it! by simple.joy, on Flickr Healthy mode by simple.joy, on Flickr
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on Sept 15, 2023 17:59:30 GMT
Posted: Sept 15, 2023 17:59:30 GMT
I'll also post this separately and in a more general context a bit later. This may be a very recent endeavour, or I've missed it completely until now, but Zeiss has a sub site dedicated to historical research for Zeiss products. This includes not only general production related information, but brochures and other ephemera, and also links to a 'virtual museum'. The research landing page is here: www.archive.zeiss.de//dok_start.fau?prj=zeiss&dm=akten&prj=zeiss&dm=aktenKeep in mind that the information is currently available in German only, but if your browser supports the ability to auto-translate languages, you may be able to make use of most of what it provides. Further plans include additions to the collections of materials offered, and in future, language specific pages beyond German. The reason I'm posting any of this here, relates to the questions of dates for the product co-operations between Zeiss and Yashica. After a search for "Yashica" in the text-only database, it spat out details of licensing agreements, product development notes, production meetings, etc.; with date ranges on some and singular years on others, ranging from 1979 out to 1991. The later years were presumably related to the Contax 645 camera line (which also included Hasselblad along with Yashica). Here's the results page from that same search: www.archive.zeiss.de/ergebnis_start.fau?prj=zeiss&token=2b4034513f704a4c59f34b1c04c3f4beafb5662fa13456a92ad6256fac8a92d6ee8ae95a820230915You may be quite surprised by what other manufacturers show up in these 5 individual results, so I can only imagine what else will come to light with a bit of digging.
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on Sept 24, 2023 10:52:58 GMT
Posted: Sept 24, 2023 10:52:58 GMT
I'll also post this separately and in a more general context a bit later. This may be a very recent endeavour, or I've missed it completely until now, but Zeiss has a sub site dedicated to historical research for Zeiss products. This includes not only general production related information, but brochures and other ephemera, and also links to a 'virtual museum'. The research landing page is here: www.archive.zeiss.de//dok_start.fau?prj=zeiss&dm=akten&prj=zeiss&dm=aktenKeep in mind that the information is currently available in German only, but if your browser supports the ability to auto-translate languages, you may be able to make use of most of what it provides. Further plans include additions to the collections of materials offered, and in future, language specific pages beyond German. The reason I'm posting any of this here, relates to the questions of dates for the product co-operations between Zeiss and Yashica. After a search for "Yashica" in the text-only database, it spat out details of licensing agreements, product development notes, production meetings, etc.; with date ranges on some and singular years on others, ranging from 1979 out to 1991. The later years were presumably related to the Contax 645 camera line (which also included Hasselblad along with Yashica). Here's the results page from that same search: www.archive.zeiss.de/ergebnis_start.fau?prj=zeiss&token=2b4034513f704a4c59f34b1c04c3f4beafb5662fa13456a92ad6256fac8a92d6ee8ae95a820230915You may be quite surprised by what other manufacturers show up in these 5 individual results, so I can only imagine what else will come to light with a bit of digging. Thank you so much for posting that link! I wasn't aware of it. While the archive was down for a couple of days, it seems to be up again and it really contains a spectacular amount of information, which can't be found anywhere else. It's not easy and very intuitive to navigate or search (even for a native German speaker like me) and it often takes a couple of detours to find the information you're looking for. So far I wasn't able to find a lot on the joint cooperation with Yashica, but I'm sure there is some relevant information there. If you find something and have any specific question about the meaning in German, don't hesitate to ask. While the auto-translation has gotten excellent, it still misses relevant information or references from time to time.
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on Sept 24, 2023 11:01:25 GMT
Posted: Sept 24, 2023 11:01:25 GMT
... on another note: I've recently seen that some Tomioka (also other Japan-made lenses) have red letters on them. yashicasailorboy.com/2016/11/09/yashica-super-yashinon-r-lens-by-tomioka-optical/This site (the name sounds familiar, isn't it from one of the members here?) mentions, that K.C. on a Super Yashinon-R might have the following meaning: Now I have a Tominon-labeled lens with the red letters N.J.K. on them... Because of the "Tominon" I would assume that it was made by Tomioka, but does anyone here have an idea what the letters might stand for in this case? Could it be some location of a plant it was made or something completely different?
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on Sept 25, 2023 18:14:14 GMT
Last Edit: Sept 25, 2023 18:15:58 GMT by lumiworx
... on another note: I've recently seen that some Tomioka (also other Japan-made lenses) have red letters on them. yashicasailorboy.com/2016/11/09/yashica-super-yashinon-r-lens-by-tomioka-optical/This site (the name sounds familiar, isn't it from one of the members here?) mentions, that K.C. on a Super Yashinon-R might have the following meaning: Now I have a Tominon-labeled lens with the red letters N.J.K. on them... Because of the "Tominon" I would assume that it was made by Tomioka, but does anyone here have an idea what the letters might stand for in this case? Could it be some location of a plant it was made or something completely different? A couple of thoughts... There have been mysterious red lettering put on lenses across the full spectrum of manufacturers. Often the markings are obvious without investigations, like the "MC" or "ML" for coating designations. Others might be so removed from reason, it takes details placed into research archives, or quoted from engineers or designers or press releases to know the real story. The Fuji 50mm lenses in the Leica screw era had a red "L" that wasn't logical labeling, and the Zeiss Jenna 50mm series in various speeds all had some form of red markings, including the Tessar f/3.5 (past the mid-page) where the lettering was re-struck to alter the usual red "T" with two additional center bars to 'strike out' the T symbology, and satisfy Zeiss Oberkochen's legal demand that they stop using "T" designations entirely.
To quote my own notes... "During the trademark dispute between the East and West German Zeiss factories in the mid-1950's, the East German shop in Jena was forced to rework or modify their symbology. Their solution was to take the red uppercase "T" used to denote a coated lens, and give it a crossbar at the bottom, and a crossbar in the middle. ... This transitional and short-lived mark is referred to as a "Flying Kite" symbol, and is rare in Jena Tessars in general, and even rarer in these f/3.5 versions, These lenses were also known in Japan as a "King Tessar", due to the symbol resembling the Kanji character for 'King'. "
As for what N.J.K. might refer to... it might be highly convoluted, or obvious and simple to someone 'in the know' at the management level, but was never uttered to anyone outside the company. I'll start a search to see what I can find, but this one could be elusive.
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on Sept 25, 2023 21:15:21 GMT
Posted: Sept 25, 2023 21:15:21 GMT
Thanks a lot for the response and the information! First up, a correction: The N.J.K. is actually written in blue. I'm sorry I misremembered and only realized it when I got the lens out today! So the full inscription reads: N.J.K. M=Tominon F4 60mm №1000030 Only the M= is in red. The o in the № actually doesn't have a line below but two points like a upside down Umlaut ö I've actually never seen that anywhere. Don't know if it's a thing. It certainly is among the weirdest inscriptions that I've encountered so far... The lens has a limited aperture scale from f/4 to f/11
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on Sept 27, 2023 13:38:03 GMT
Last Edit: Sept 27, 2023 13:39:29 GMT by xkaes
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on Sept 27, 2023 20:29:31 GMT
Posted: Sept 27, 2023 20:29:31 GMT
Searches for "N. J. K." are obviously lacking in returns that pertain to lenses or optics in general, so there might be a different tact to take with other searchable resources, so those will come next. Anytime I see both N & K letters on photo gear, and specifically lenses, my first thought goes to Nippon Kogaku Optical... i.e., Nikon. They did collaborate with several of their 'competitors' through the years, and many times that would mean hiding in plain sight by changing up some portion of labeling. They did this as far back as their first budget SLR, the Nikkorex, with Mamiya and Ricoh providing optical parts, secondary prime lenses, bodies, etc. The optical results were the 135mm and 35mm Nikkorex Sekor lenses from Mamiya (past mid-page). If Nikon may have had any involvement, my guess would be that the N.J.K. lettering might be Nikon Japan, Kogaku (Optical), or weirdly, something like Nippon Japan Kogaku. As for blue lettering colors, that brings me to Kino/Kiron, and a lens like the 105mm f/2.8 Macro. In many ways it's like the Tomioka/Yashica 60mm Macro, and some might say equal in optics to it, so obviously Kino has experience in the macro category. Their blue paint is rather distinctive in color, and I suppose the same can be said for the blue used by Nikon on their early F-Mounts that used green and yellow, and even a shade of pink. There's one more "K" to consider in the puzzle, but unfortunately it's also very generic in context. "Kōgaku-teki" is Japanese for "Optical", and there are lots of Japanese optical companies that have used the word 'Kogaku' as part of their corporate identity, just like Nikon did.
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on Sept 28, 2023 17:20:21 GMT
Posted: Sept 28, 2023 17:20:21 GMT
One new search turned up one other lens within the text portion of a forum post on focus stacking lenses, showing "NJK" (no periods, no spaces) to reference the lens. The lens mentioned is a "055mm [f/4] Micro-Nikkor 55MM P Auto NJK 55mm 3.5 (comp, Ai, Kit 63)"
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on Sept 28, 2023 21:18:04 GMT
Posted: Sept 28, 2023 21:18:04 GMT
Searches for "N. J. K." are obviously lacking in returns that pertain to lenses or optics in general, so there might be a different tact to take with other searchable resources, so those will come next. Anytime I see both N & K letters on photo gear, and specifically lenses, my first thought goes to Nippon Kogaku Optical... i.e., Nikon. They did collaborate with several of their 'competitors' through the years, and many times that would mean hiding in plain sight by changing up some portion of labeling. They did this as far back as their first budget SLR, the Nikkorex, with Mamiya and Ricoh providing optical parts, secondary prime lenses, bodies, etc. The optical results were the 135mm and 35mm Nikkorex Sekor lenses from Mamiya (past mid-page). If Nikon may have had any involvement, my guess would be that the N.J.K. lettering might be Nikon Japan, Kogaku (Optical), or weirdly, something like Nippon Japan Kogaku. As for blue lettering colors, that brings me to Kino/Kiron, and a lens like the 105mm f/2.8 Macro. In many ways it's like the Tomioka/Yashica 60mm Macro, and some might say equal in optics to it, so obviously Kino has experience in the macro category. Their blue paint is rather distinctive in color, and I suppose the same can be said for the blue used by Nikon on their early F-Mounts that used green and yellow, and even a shade of pink. There's one more "K" to consider in the puzzle, but unfortunately it's also very generic in context. "Kōgaku-teki" is Japanese for "Optical", and there are lots of Japanese optical companies that have used the word 'Kogaku' as part of their corporate identity, just like Nikon did. Very interesting - thank you so much for the information! You are of course correct, and Nippon Kogaku was on my mind as well when thinking about those letters... but then the J. in the middle put me off that idea. I thought it would have to be N.K.J. then. In terms of Nikon lenses with similar specs, I found a Micro-Nikkor 55 mm f/4: flashbackcamera.jp/brand/nikon/lens/010951-nikon-micro-nikkor-55mm-f4-l/and something about a UV-Nikkor Auto 55mm f/4www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/companies/nikon/nikkoresources/special/55mmUV.htmHere's some discussion on that on the UV-Forum: www.ultravioletphotography.com/content/index.php?/topic/4127-uv-nikkor-55mm/In that thread there's also mention about an answer from Nikon in regard to the latter lens: "The 55mm UV Nikkor f/4 is not commercially available. It was only made for NASA." Very interesting for sure... still I doubt any involvement of Nikon for now though 😅. Have they ever worked with Tomioka on anything? The "Tominon" seems a clear-cut indicator that this lens was made by Tomioka to me. Would you agree or are there exceptions to this rule? As you mentioned the K. standing for Kogaku is a likely possibility. J. for Japan as well. Perhaps it stands for something completely different like the japanese version of "Protoype only. Not for sale" or something like that? I'll provide some images showing the lens soon + another lens I was reminded of immediately, when I saw it...
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on Sept 28, 2023 21:27:40 GMT
Posted: Sept 28, 2023 21:27:40 GMT
The f-stops only go to f8!?!?!?!?! Yes, the usually do, in some cases they go to f/11 though (I think the Copal-E90 105 and 115 mm lenses for example) I've read that limited apertures are often a sign of high-resolution/specialized lenses. I assume it's probably intended to reduce the likelihood of user error. There are some really interesting exceptions to this though... 😂
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on Sept 29, 2023 18:48:53 GMT
Posted: Sept 29, 2023 18:48:53 GMT
Well, sometimes the best we can do is speculate from disparate clues. It took me months to track down the Tessar 'Flying Kite' info, and I imagine we aren't the only ones who may have found dead ends when tracking details.
I would never assume that Japanese companies never did business with their rivals. There seems to be too may times that historical data has come to light to refute that idea. Tomioka had outside contracts, before and after they were acquired, and some were publicized while others weren't. The involvement with Zeiss is probably the best known after they were bought, all the way to the lesser known licensing deals that Kyocera entered into once they took the helm, i.e., Phenix, with a rebadged FX-3. IMHO, anything is possible for Japanese partnerships... especially when it came to Kyocera's time when pursuit of corporate income was more important than Yashica's brand reputation or stature as an innovator.
The "Tomioka" and "Tominon" names didn't disappear after the company melted into Yashica. Their names were still prominent with secondary M42 mounts (both co-branded and sole branding) and Polaroid folder and rigid body 'pro' lenses produced with their Tominon branding, and even with providing the monster Tominon 230mm f/4.5 process lens to IBM. Nikon certainly had a massive market in enlarger and microscope lenses, and likely had expertise in some types of specialty lenses that Tomioka hadn't produced before and may have been amicable to some licensing deal. It may have been as simple as having patents that Yashica would prefer to pay a fee to use, than to reinvent another wheel, and part of that deal was some type of designation to be shown as "NJK".
And... The Nikkor mentioned in the focus stacking article sounded familiar, and as it turns out, I may have that very lens on a shelf. Unfortunately, I'm about 1000 miles away at the moment, and won't be close again for quite some time, so I can't inspect it to see if there's any "NLK" markings on it.
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on Sept 30, 2023 22:47:06 GMT
Last Edit: Sept 30, 2023 22:56:16 GMT by simplejoy
Well, sometimes the best we can do is speculate from disparate clues. It took me months to track down the Tessar 'Flying Kite' info, and I imagine we aren't the only ones who may have found dead ends when tracking details.
I would never assume that Japanese companies never did business with their rivals. There seems to be too may times that historical data has come to light to refute that idea. Tomioka had outside contracts, before and after they were acquired, and some were publicized while others weren't. The involvement with Zeiss is probably the best known after they were bought, all the way to the lesser known licensing deals that Kyocera entered into once they took the helm, i.e., Phenix, with a rebadged FX-3. IMHO, anything is possible for Japanese partnerships... especially when it came to Kyocera's time when pursuit of corporate income was more important than Yashica's brand reputation or stature as an innovator.
The "Tomioka" and "Tominon" names didn't disappear after the company melted into Yashica. Their names were still prominent with secondary M42 mounts (both co-branded and sole branding) and Polaroid folder and rigid body 'pro' lenses produced with their Tominon branding, and even with providing the monster Tominon 230mm f/4.5 process lens to IBM. Nikon certainly had a massive market in enlarger and microscope lenses, and likely had expertise in some types of specialty lenses that Tomioka hadn't produced before and may have been amicable to some licensing deal. It may have been as simple as having patents that Yashica would prefer to pay a fee to use, than to reinvent another wheel, and part of that deal was some type of designation to be shown as "NJK".
And... The Nikkor mentioned in the focus stacking article sounded familiar, and as it turns out, I may have that very lens on a shelf. Unfortunately, I'm about 1000 miles away at the moment, and won't be close again for quite some time, so I can't inspect it to see if there's any "NLK" markings on it. Thanks a lot for your thoughts and ideas - that makes a lot of sense indeed! And you're right of course: there was (and still is) significantly more collaboration behind the scenes of lens makers than most people can imagine. I've heard quite a bit about it from people in the know and some things (still happening to this day) are really mind-blowing. Back to the M=Tominon N.J.K. 60 mm F4 lens: As promised I'll share some images and one of my suspicions about it. As you can see this is a comparison to the Zeiss S-Planar 60 mm f/4 according to Marco Cavina a lens used for "microfilm recording". Apart from the identical specs, these two lenses also look surprisingly similar in their exterior design to me. The diameters (while not each of them completely identical) are VERY similar as well. Most importantly it's quite likely that they share the same lens design, a 5 elements in 4 groups one. (As the Zeiss archive seems to be out of order again, I'll link to Marco Cavina's article. It almost feels like the engineers at Tomioka got the order from Yashica: Here you've got one of the older Zeiss designs we're able to license. Get to it and create us a lens based on that, but significantly lighter and cheaper! I'm very curious about your thoughts on that... and also, if it changes the possible meanings of N.J.K. in your estimation?
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on Oct 2, 2023 15:09:09 GMT
Last Edit: Oct 2, 2023 15:09:38 GMT by xkaes
As already mentioned, several high quality lenses only stop down to f11 -- to avoid diffraction, I assume. If the lens is designed for optimum results at wider f-stops, why allow it to stop down? Avoids having customers complain. So a lens that only stops down to f8 is understandable -- when it's designed for a special use, such as with controlled light.
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