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on Dec 9, 2019 4:56:04 GMT
Last Edit: Dec 9, 2019 5:01:06 GMT by lumiworx
I went looking again for a Yashica mirror lens after reading a recent thread on the ML 500mm version (I can't blame biggles3 - I've been looking for awhile). What I found was not an ML, but fate put a Reflex in my sights on Thanksgiving day at a bid/win price that was hard to resist - so I didn't. Now there seems to be a question on where this one fits, and whether it might be a 3rd version of the C/Y bayonet Reflex line. It's # 404 from the 52xxxxx serial sequence, it has the tripod foot and the slide-in side filter slot, and appears to have 2 distinct color reflections for the coating. I'd hesitate to call them 'ML-like', but they are certainly the mid-purple and rose-orange tints I'd expect for the period. It includes the built-in hood, and weighs 798.8 grams with both caps attached. All of the features when put together seem to suggest that it's at odds with the 2 known Reflex versions, and it obviously doesn't have an ML or DX badge to put it into another perspective. There were no other filters included, or the case, so there's nothing else to use for clues.  |
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on Dec 9, 2019 11:50:30 GMT
Last Edit: Dec 10, 2019 10:14:43 GMT by biggles3
Hi lumiworx,
Congratulations on getting hold of the Reflex 500 for a good price! It is a fine lens.
The Reflex lens situation is a bit complicated. The first version was the Yashinon-DX 500 f8, single-coated with a built-in sliding lens hood and rotating tripod socket, produced in the M42 mount. When the C/Y mount was introduced, some versions of the Yashinon-DX were branded Reflex, given the DS-M multi-coating, but still used the M42 mount. Then came the same lens, but in a C/Y mount, all multi-coated using the DS-M coatings. There then followed another version, with a screw-on lens hood and no tripod collar, again multi-coated but not using the ML coating. All 3 versions were essentially the same lens. Finally, we come to the ML version which has completely revised optics, is much more compact, has a screw-on hood and no tripod collar.
Your serial number should correlate with the earliest versions using the DS-M coatings; it's slightly complicated by the fact that some higher serial numbers are associated with M42 mounts - I had one of them with a 52009xx number. It would be interesting to see whether you have a native C/Y mount or an adapted M42 type...
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on Dec 9, 2019 23:08:48 GMT
Posted: Dec 9, 2019 23:08:48 GMT
Thanks biggles3... It hasn't had a proper testing yet, but after a couple of inside shots under boosted lighting, it seems to be capable. As for the mount, it's definitely in C/Y mount as-is, but whether it's native or somehow adapted...? I don't see anything irregular in the hardware. The angled 'T' max-aperture tab is the same one used on the longer DSB or C/Y telephotos and screwed inside the ring. There's nothing amateurish about the construction or parts - down to the U-shaped spring holding the filter in place or the integrated lens tube. The best I can offer is a snap of the rear mount to compare with.  |
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on Dec 10, 2019 10:14:13 GMT
Posted: Dec 10, 2019 10:14:13 GMT
Hi lumiworx,
That looks like a factory-fitted C/Y mount which is great news. It's interesting to note that Yashica decided to produce both mount types on the Reflex 500mm for a time after the introduction of the new bayonet system; it made sense I suppose as their M42 cameras were still being sold and there were many hundreds of thousands of people around the world using that mount some of whom may have had a need for a quality 500mm lens. By the time we hit the numbers 5201xxx I haven't found any M42 Reflex versions.
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on Dec 10, 2019 17:11:33 GMT
Posted: Dec 10, 2019 17:11:33 GMT
Thanks for the confirmation. I was a bit worried when you mentioned 'adapted', but it's good to know it's a factory job and not something to loosen or pop off down the line. Between your descriptions and those researched by xkaes , it's starting to look like there may have been more variations that could have been sprinkled in as short batch runs during that middle transition period between the DX and ML series. It wouldn't surprise me if a few more pop up over time. I'm guessing that somewhere along the way, management decided that the demands weren't there for large numbers of 500mm's overall... and that might also account for there being no DS/DSB/MC/YUS 500's. It makes sense to have a few variations of the basic lens, and just group them all under a new "Reflex" model name instead. I can't imagine there was any need for producing 10,000+ 500mm lenses in 5/6/7 lens families when you know they'd be collecting dust on the shelves. Add the 2+ Contax mirrors onto those numbers and I'd think there would be a boxcar full of them going unsold. |
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on Dec 10, 2019 20:57:25 GMT
Posted: Dec 10, 2019 20:57:25 GMT
Thanks for the confirmation. I was a bit worried when you mentioned 'adapted', but it's good to know it's a factory job and not something to loosen or pop off down the line. Between your descriptions and those researched by xkaes , it's starting to look like there may have been more variations that could have been sprinkled in as short batch runs during that middle transition period between the DX and ML series. It wouldn't surprise me if a few more pop up over time. I'm guessing that somewhere along the way, management decided that the demands weren't there for large numbers of 500mm's overall... and that might also account for there being no DS/DSB/MC/YUS 500's. It makes sense to have a few variations of the basic lens, and just group them all under a new "Reflex" model name instead. I can't imagine there was any need for producing 10,000+ 500mm lenses in 5/6/7 lens families when you know they'd be collecting dust on the shelves. Add the 2+ Contax mirrors onto those numbers and I'd think there would be a boxcar full of them going unsold. One thing to remember about the original Zeiss 500 and 1000 Mirotars for the Contax system is that they didn't start making one until you'd part-paid for it! No off-the-shelf sales for those beauties. I've finally found my price lists that go back to 1984 (from Kyocera in Hamburg - all auf Deutsch) - I found the 1986 pre-tax prices for the 500 f4.5 (12,000DM), 1000 f5.6 (26.000DM) and the 210mm N-Mirotar (18,900DM) and the 85mm f1.2 Planar a mere 2,877DM...very cheap by comparison!
I had the privilege of playing with both lenses in the 1980s but never got to own the 1000mm. My books were on sport but they were near useless for sports work as the dof of the 500mm was quite shallow and focusing was not exactly speedy. If shooting an outdoor sport, they needed to be used on big, heavily damped supports, and then pre-focused; you'd bang off about 15 frames at 5fps on the RTS from just before the critical point of focus to a little after and then wait for the film to be developed - and hope... For natural history or surveillance they were pretty good but I did see a few great photos of equestrian events using the smaller lens and yachting piccies taken with the big one.
Of course, you could buy the East German Zeiss 500 and 1000 Mirotars off-the-shelf and they were virtually identical and about a quarter of the price.
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on Dec 16, 2019 17:45:58 GMT
Last Edit: Dec 16, 2019 17:46:59 GMT by Deleted
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on Dec 16, 2019 21:32:01 GMT
Last Edit: Dec 16, 2019 21:33:26 GMT by lumiworx
The deeper it goes, and the more of these that have surfaced recently, the more it seems my speculation might be more than a reasonable guess. If the total number they might expect to produce for any/all lens lines over the course of a year (or two) is in the low thousands or less, it would be rational to create a catch-all model designation that wouldn't be tied to a previously known model series or conflict with any future model lines while they migrate from the old to the new. The "Reflex" models wouldn't have to follow any formula or any particular feature set or mount. They make what they need to fill a limited demand, and they aren't committed to producing one of every possible flavor for every lens series they make. The optical diagram seems to be the same throughout all the Yashicas from the 1st DX on, until the Reflex line ends. They differ in mounts, coatings, filters, with/without built-in hoods or a tripod foot - but the base lens uses the same barrel and subassemblies from the front ring back to the 1st 'flat' of the rear lens plate. I suspect that they did small batches of perhaps 100-250 pieces in a particular feature set, then switched to another set, then 'rinse/repeat' until you can shut down orders on the old models and push the new ML and Mirrotar lines when they're ready. The plain 'Reflex 500mm' street price was $279 from Executive Photo Supply according to Popular Photography's Apr 1981 issue, pg., 187. A paste-up of that ad...  At that price it was the most costly Yashica model for sale at the time. These were a huge expense - even if you were a pro and could justify the cost - and they'd sit idle more often than not. Other than maybe a Nikon or Canon mirror in the same size and speed, I don't remember ever seeing anything like them on display or for sale in local camera stores when they were new. I saw them in New York, and L.A. retailers, yes... but at least for me in the midwest, these weren't lenses you walked in and bought. Anything new that strayed beyond the usual 24/35/50/135 sizes were always special orders, and, in my case, were sent in from a regional warehouse (usually Chicago) where they kept some shared distributor's stock. The only other option at the time, was doing mail orders from New York, which was almost always faster and cheaper. |
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on Dec 17, 2019 13:16:49 GMT
Posted: Dec 17, 2019 13:16:49 GMT
That is an original M42 mount and a C/Y adapter ring has been added to convert it.
By the look of it, it was not factory fitted so I reckon some Yashica enthusiast updated it to work with the new bayonet system. I did this to one of mine and have seen a few, in Japan particularly, that have been glued in place; to be fair, once in position they should function perfectly though with one caveat: a lot of the early C/Y adapter rings created a misalignment such that the centre line on the barrel was not in line with the centre red dot on the mount. It was a minor irritant but of course had no impact on the image quality of the lens.
The M42 Yashinon DX Reflex and the C/Y Reflex are excellent (and optically identical) lenses in their own rights but I've noticed their prices rising over the last 18 months, probably due to confusion with the reputation of the ML.
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