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on May 28, 2019 18:53:58 GMT
Posted: May 28, 2019 18:53:58 GMT
For reasons too lengthy to explain, I have been exploring 800mm f8 -- and tangentially 600mm f8 -- non-mirror lenses.
Since most are T-mount or M42-mount, the name of the lens is insignificant for general use.
The ones I've run across seem to be from the very late 60's or early 70's. They seem to be able to be grouped into two styles -- a two element in one group design, and a four element in two group design. The four element lenses are shorter than the two element lenses, but other wise they look almost exactly the same.
One is the Tele-Tokina 800mm f8, which has been suggested to be the same as the Soligor, Vivitar, and Asanuma labeled 800mm f8.
Looking through some material, I discovered the Super Yashinon 800mm f8. It looks the same to me as the Tokina, and the others.
So I have a couple of questions running around my head.
Were all these lenses both 800mm and 600mm) available in two versions -- two element, and four element? I have some evidence that at least the Vivitar was.
Were all of these lenses made by Tokina or Tomioka? They all seem too alike to be made by different manufacturers.
And the same goes for the 600mm f8 lens versions as well.
Whether 600mm or 800mm, they all are collapsible and have a separate focusing unit/tube, like some older Nikon and Canon lenses.
Some of these lenses might have been sold under different labels, as well.
Anyone have any ideas, or info?
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on May 28, 2019 18:58:41 GMT
Posted: May 28, 2019 18:58:41 GMT
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on May 29, 2019 1:06:49 GMT
Posted: May 29, 2019 1:06:49 GMT
Both the 600 and the 800 Super R's were 2 elements in 1 group. Here's a link to the spec sheet list that I posted in the 'Brochures...' section. It includes both lenses. I haven't used either one - or even held one of them in my hands - but it might take a physical side-by-side comparison before I'd assume these might be re-branded XYZ lenses. If you read the text on that sheet, it certainly sounds like they were marketing their own expertise in optical advancements while making 'all these lenses' - and - these lenses were released after the Tomioka relationship started - guessing by the reference to them all being designed for use on "recently marketed electronic..." SLR's, so they had the skill sets to do their own manufacturing between the 2 of them in-house (or rather, kinda/sorta in-house). I did some digging a few years back on the somewhat similar but shorter Mamiya Sekor 400mm f/6.3 preset that most users were sure was the exact same lens as the Spiratone 'Sharpshooter' and a few others with the same length and aperture, but they definitely are not the same (or even that close), aside from the matching specs on paper. The same might apply here. A Leica's not a Leica when it's really a Nicca, or a F.E.D., or anything that has the same styling queues to suit the time period they were born in. |
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on Jun 24, 2019 14:10:13 GMT
Last Edit: Jun 24, 2019 15:31:53 GMT by xkaes
Here's the latest. Upon further investigation of (even at the time, obscure) 50-year-old information, it appears that the first of these two (600mm and 800mm) LONG focal length monsters were made by Tomioka. They were both TWO element in ONE group optics which were so long, they consisted of two pieces -- one with the glass elements, and the other with the diaphragm and focusing tube. The two pieces were attached for use, and separated for storage. Canon and Nikon offered similar optics at the same time -- the BIG different being the price! This was about 1968 when, coincidentally, Tomioka and Yashica merged. These two lenses were sold as Super Yashinon-R (meaning "Pre-set"). While all of Yashica's lenses were made by Tomioka, not all of Tomioka's lenses were marked as Yashica. Tomioka sold these lenses (and others) to other marketers/distributors, so these lenses can be found labeled as Soligor and Vivitar. At some point in the 1970's -- probably when Yashica made the switch to the C/Y mount -- they decided to drop this lens from their line-up (slow sales?). Apparently Tomioka did as well. But that is not the end of the story. Tokina liked the design so much, it saw an opportunity. Maybe it bought the design from Tomioka. Who knows? But, Tokina made one small change/improvement. It added a second TWO element group to the REAR of the lens -- turning these babies into true TELEPHOTO optics, and not just long focal length lenses. This shortened the lenses somewhat, but all of the other features remained exactly the same, including the two-piece design and the f8 aperture. Tokina sold them both under the Tokina label, but also sold them to other distributors, such as Asanuma, Soligor, and Vivitar. So we end up with a mish-mash, sort of. TWO lenses (600mm and 800mm) with TWO slightly different optical formulas (2/1 and 4/2), all f8, and each appearing under a variety of names.
The easiest way to determine which version you have is to see if there is any glass in the rear of the lens tube.
As to quality? It would be interesting to see a comparison between the two versions, but that will have to wait.
Any thoughts? |
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on Jun 24, 2019 15:54:51 GMT
Posted: Jun 24, 2019 15:54:51 GMT
Detroit auto makers and computer software companies have had at least one thing in common since their earliest days of producing a product. They're happy to announce the improvements they've made over the previous model, and to boast about the volume of their sales. Many of the camera and lens makers in Japan during the 50's to the 80's were almost the exact opposite about not only those two points, but almost anything else that wasn't absolutely necessary for marketing purposes.
Having said that... I think this all sounds pretty plausible overall, and Tomioka certainly kept some of it's autonomy after they were acquired, so there's sufficient reason to think they could have re-branded what Yashica no longer wanted, and/or, licensed a design once they and Yashica no longer needed a preset in their catalog for future lens lines. It definitely didn't keep them from doing alternative designs after they merged, then sold those under their own name, or as Sear's 'Tower' products, or licensed and manufactured lenses for Revuenon and others.
There might be one caveat to that thought, and it's happened historically with most makers of photo gear... There comes a point in time, that some don't ask for or seek a license for their underlying design. A Gauss design from the 1890's was modified and improved on by hundreds of companies without licensing, and that was especially true when someone came upon the idea of cemented doublets to make it a double-Gauss. The same "I don't need no stinking..." license approach may have played out with Tokina. They saw the obviousness in their improvement over Tomioka's version, and also saw it as a stand-alone design that didn't require any permissions or payments. Since they viewed the design as their own, they would do exactly as they'd done many times before... license the design or re-brand it for Vivitar, Soligor, et all.
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on Jun 24, 2019 18:02:13 GMT
Last Edit: Jun 24, 2019 18:28:56 GMT by xkaes
Based on the close-up pictures I have seen of the 2/1 Tomioka version and the 4/2 Tokina (?) version, it appears that the body of the lens is the same -- same focusing ring, even the same paint! It makes me think that the same manufacturing equipment was used for both versions. An additional change is that for some brands, the shape of the carrying case was changed from horizontal to vertical. Tokina's is the former, Vivitar's the latter, but this might have changed over time. From what I can glean from the Popular Photography Annual Directories, the 4/2 models petered out in the late 1970's with Asanuma being perhaps the last seller.
The serial # of the 4/2 Vivitar models start with "37" -- their designation for "Tokina-made". I haven't seen a serial # for the 4/2 Soligor models, but I bet they start with "1" -- their designation for "Tokina-made". I wonder what the serial numbers on the non-Yashinon 2/1 models are.....
Anyone know much about Asanuma? I know they were a very early photo company, but they didn't make it through the War. After WWII some  company decided to use the name for a while and sold a lot of lenses made by company. |
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on Jun 24, 2019 21:05:17 GMT
Last Edit: Jun 25, 2019 21:45:25 GMT by xkaes
I should have noted from the start that the Super Yashinon-R 600mm and 800mm were only made with a 42mm x 1.0mm (P-mount), while all of the others were made with a 42mm x 0.75mm (T-mount). This is not really important for most cameras because adapters for either are typically easy to find, but the T-mount lenses will be about 1/2" shorter than the Yashinons because you have to add the T-mount to use them.
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company decided to use the name for a while and sold a lot of lenses made by