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on Jan 16, 2015 23:16:45 GMT
Posted: Jan 16, 2015 23:16:45 GMT
Hi everyone,
Just spotted another of these rare (and rather inexplicable) Yashica lenses on Ebay (Item: 331450320158). Hitherto, the only DX lens officially listed by Yashica in a C/Y mount is the Medical 100mm f4 with in-built flash (great lens!).
The best guess is that there was a short period before the ML-coated glass elements were available and it was recognised that a DX optical formula fitted the new ML bodies; the only problem is with the numbering of these lenses; for example, I have a 50 f2 ML that starts A903.. and my two DX versions start with A904.. and A905... respectively. What is further confusing is that the front element looks like its ML-coated. Perhaps Yashica simply got their bezel printing mixed up but the only bezel for the 50 f2 DX was labelled Auto-Yashinon DX so it's not a matter of running out of ML bezels and finding a temporary fix...
There is no evidence of these lenses being marketed under the DX brand by Yashica/Kyocera so why they exist at all remains a puzzle. Best guess is that the numbering is misleading - some Yashica lenses do not follow sequential numbers - and that they were a temporary fix until the full production of ML elements was in place.
I can find no difference in performance between the DX and ML versions - but it's still nice to see these enigmas appear for sale from time to time.
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on Jan 17, 2015 4:30:14 GMT
Last Edit: Jan 17, 2015 4:34:17 GMT by ridgeblue99
Yeah, I can see that scenario of a gap in ML production being the most plausible. Or maybe the brass at the main office were afraid folks weren't recognizing the ML lenses as better than the DX ones, and made a temporary name switch. It also could have been a marketing move thing, only sold in Japan. If sold in some other country, it could happen if there was a hold-up in getting proper import/export documents arranged, or getting the ML designation trademarked.
PF
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on Jan 17, 2015 5:22:14 GMT
Posted: Jan 17, 2015 5:22:14 GMT
I am going to blame it on quantum entanglement.
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on Jan 17, 2015 17:03:00 GMT
Posted: Jan 17, 2015 17:03:00 GMT
I am going to blame it on quantum entanglement. Why couldn't I think of that!!
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on Jan 18, 2015 18:33:24 GMT
Posted: Jan 18, 2015 18:33:24 GMT
Hmmmm....
I decided to remove the front bezel of a DX and ML to compare them, thinking that the only difference would be the printing...so imagine my surprise to see that they are completely different in construction.
The photo below is focused on the elements - as you may be able to see, they appear to have an identical configuration (this would go some way to explaining identical image quality from both lenses). However, the engineering of the body and retaining rings for the front of the lenses is totally dissimilar. The ML has the typical plastic bezel which can be unscrewed to give access to the element; the DX however has a completely different configuration in which the front section of the lens body unscrews to give similar access, and below that the retaining structures are also unique to this lens. This front section, at least on my lenses, is of metal construction.
That seems to further deepen the mystery as to why these lenses were produced, as the cost of production must have been higher as they are using exclusive components.
greyscale's answer, 'quantum entanglement', has to be the explanation....
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on Jan 18, 2015 19:22:11 GMT
Posted: Jan 18, 2015 19:22:11 GMT
Maybe they had some leftover DS lens bodies, and some leftover DX bezels, or they misengraved some DSB bezels, ... Nah. Quantum entanglement.
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on Jan 18, 2015 19:35:58 GMT
Last Edit: Jan 18, 2015 19:37:08 GMT by greyscale
It would be interesting to know exactly when the first prototype C/Y mount body was produced. If the bayonet was designed prior to the public announcement of Secret Project 130, and there were no CZ or Yashica ML or DSB lenses in production, it might make sense that Yashica produced a limited number of C/Y lenses using the old nomenclature for field testing. Keeping with the top-secret nature of said project 130, and the physical resemblance of the FX1 and FX2 to the Yashica screw mounts, this might make sense if they were trying to hide the new cameras from prying eyes. So, either subtle subterfuge or an example of the multiverse in action.
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on Jan 18, 2015 22:24:44 GMT
Last Edit: Jan 19, 2015 13:46:25 GMT by biggles3
An interesting thought about the development of the first body for the new mount - which came first, the mount or the body...
The mount was in existence by the end of 1972 and had been tested on a couple of the lenses designed for the ill-fated SL725 - if you look at the 85 1.4 Planar produced in the C/Y mount, it is identical to the one designed for SL725. The external appearance of the Zeiss optics had thus been established but Yashica had not yet standardised its lens range. Although the Contax RTS was still in the design/mock-up stage in 1972, it appears that Yashica had been developing some new bodies to take over from the revolutionary Electro AX, still with mechanical shutters, when the the Yashica-Zeiss-Contax/Bauhaus agreement was signed in 1971. These bodies were the precursors of the FX-1 and FX-II and a separate team started work on the FR series using all-electronic shutters.
I've been unable so far to determine when the first DSB lenses were produced (they slightly preceded the ML though production was simultaneous until they had a wide enough range available to be able to phase out the single-coated lenses) for the new C/Y range of cameras but it seems probable that Zeiss lenses were used initially for compatibility testing. The 50mm f2 design, DX or ML, was not part of the early range of system lenses, only appearing towards the end of 1980 with the launch of the FX-D and was often paired with the FX-3, launched the previous year.
(The photo bellow shows the f2 55 DSB, 50 DX and 50 ML and their very different front-ends)
So, given the completely different bodies of the 55 f2 DSB, 50 f2 DX and ML, I still don't have an answer for these rare DX lenses; they post-date the ML (at least the serial numbers suggest this), they didn't (for all we can find out) exist when the FX-1 was introduced in 1975 or the FR in 1977 - but a thought has occurred...
IF we can accept the serial numbers as reflecting the period of manufacture, these DX standard lenses would have appeared around the same time as the also very rare FX-A cameras, most of which were issued to US Government agencies (a handful made it to Europe). It is generally estimated that up to 1,400 FX-A cameras were manufactured (there are other estimates though that suggest well under 1000) and were used by police agencies/the military; usually such people require long or very wide lenses (covert surveillance or crowd monitoring) but a limited number of pancake-style lenses such as the 50 f2 would also have their uses. The construction of the lens is very robust - much more than the ML1.9 and the front end is stronger than ML f2 - so it could make sense that a limited run was authorised based on an earlier, more costly design for the ML that became the DX.
One of my FX-A bodies came with a DX 50mm with a #A905***** serial number - I had never given any thought to the combination until today.
Of course, quantum entanglement is probably closer to the truth!
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on Dec 11, 2016 13:27:53 GMT
Last Edit: Dec 11, 2016 13:28:34 GMT by biggles3
This is really starting to bug me. I have spotted two more C/Y DX 50mm f2 lenses on Ebay while trying to find a sensibly priced late version Auto Yashinon-DX 50 f2 in M42 mount. My intention is to dismantle both versions of the DX to see whether they share the same optical formula as no information is available (at least, I've not yet found any) on the C/Y DX lens. The C/Y DX is so different in its construction from the ML 50 f2, I still don't understand why it exists at all - even more so given that it makes an appearance around the time Yashica was preparing for take-over by Kyocera and were cost-cutting wherever possible. Why create new tooling for a lens that won't go on general sale....‽
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on Dec 12, 2016 18:52:42 GMT
Last Edit: Dec 12, 2016 18:53:11 GMT by lenslover
Well, i'd guess nobody can give you that answer, Graham..after roughly 40 years...besides that, i am happy with my ML 50/2 & ML 50/1.7 iterations...life is too short to check out too many lenses...or disassembling them.... ;-)
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on Nov 8, 2019 17:40:25 GMT
Posted: Nov 8, 2019 17:40:25 GMT
Perhaps lumiworx can find the answer to the origins of the C/Y mount Yashica DX 50 f2 lens, although greyscale's suggestion of quantum entanglement still seems the best...
No one on this Forum seems to have better historical records than you lumiworx so can you throw some light on this strange lens? I have never found any reference to it (other than here of course) but I now have half a dozen of them and they are superb performers...
DX 50 f2
But why were they ever made‽ Their serial numbers form part of the ML 50 f2 series (mine range from A904908xx up to A905259xx) and they are of a different construction.
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on Nov 8, 2019 20:26:54 GMT
Last Edit: Nov 9, 2019 0:32:44 GMT by lumiworx
Sadly, the only date-specific historical details I have - and even then, not terribly extensive - centers around the cameras and bodies. Anything lens-wise is hit and miss. However, I can draw on some bottom-up family experience in assembly line manufacturing over 3 generations (i.e, 'shop rats' at GM) for what I think might be a logical possibility.
Mass producing highly engineered products like cars or cameras/lenses, would always need some ramping up over time and in stages to produce them. To skip a step has cascading consequences for everything from fit/finish, reliability and warranties, supply chain corrections, and goes all the way to after-sales repairs and parts. Designs have mockups, then a 'proof-of-concept' working model first. Then after some hand-assembled prototypes, there comes a time where you have to run a sample batch in limited quantities through a real assembly process. It might take years to go through it, and when you're at the last stages in gearing up for a production test run... you'll already have a stock of all the components and subassemblies needed. Whether those would all or partially come from inside or outside - they'd require a fair amount of lead time and expenditure before that point. This might be the part of the process where Yashica's commitment is made to pursue a new line, and the company is still stable to most eyes when the decision to go ahead is made.
If the company is producing cars, there might be 5, 10, 25, 50 of a new model done on an off-line assembly line to test the whole manufacturing process, verify quality control, and do all the process analysis reports that every maker expects to see before 'somebody' signs off on scheduling a regular production run. If it's smaller items than cars, where there's hands-on assembly for everything, there might be a much larger test run in volume. It might be 1000, or 10000+, where you'd ultimately plan on taking what's made and mix them with the regular runs when that stage is finally started. GM did front brake spindles and rear axles like this.
If these lenses were well into the process and at or near the trial assembly stage when things got dicey for the company, the obvious thing might be to recoup what they can from the investment that's already been made. With a bailout on the horizon and a shakeup in management looming, the bean counters tend to take over to some extent, and the end result of the recovery mode might be that X number of test run lenses are released to distributors as the 'next generation' model that's been okayed for early release. No mention is made of pending troubles by Yashica, and there's no incentive to say a word if everything works out. After the bailout is actually done, you explain that restructuring has dictated a new direction in product development, and that the line is 'merged' into something else.
That means there's no shutdown of the existing assembly lines for what GM would call "changeover", where old tooling is pulled out, and the new goes in over a 2 week period of mandatory worker furloughs. There's no further orders for assembly parts on the 'new line', and all of the unique parts made for them are assembled and soon gone out as a one-batch sale. No one at the company wants to offer much for explanations, and there's little need to advertise a line that will never see a real production run.
This is all 100% speculation (and incredibly long-winded), but it comes from being laid off permanently in the early 70's when GM shut down parts of the Pontiac plant I'd worked in. Thousands of workers were never recalled, the Safari Wagon and the Grand Prix lines were later closed. For the employees that remained after the layoffs, they were re-assigned as needed to complete assembly of the parts they had on hand for both model lines. Eventually the remaining plant was retooled to produce the Fiero.
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on Nov 8, 2019 22:53:39 GMT
Posted: Nov 8, 2019 22:53:39 GMT
Well, it's for sure a seldom lens, but for example, there are tons of ML 50/F2's being out there - and this lens is nowadays dirt-cheap, and still it rocks. I do like my 50/F2 ML, i've sold the 45/2.8 Tessar Contax Zeiss, because the aperture ring was being really "fiddly", and only F2.8 anyway...so the ML 50/F2 is the better, worlds cheaper alternative.
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