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on Jun 30, 2021 20:30:57 GMT
Last Edit: Jun 30, 2021 20:32:52 GMT by lumiworx
Technically it was built by Tomioka and carries the Tominon name, but it's not exactly a lens you'd buy for a camera. It was manufactured for IBM and carries a stamped part # for them, and I'll have to assume for now that it's either a process lens (very large copy cameras), or it's for X-Rays machines or something equally large in film format. I haven't yet found any reference on the part #, so if you're familiar with this beast of a lens, I'd appreciate a pointer. It's 1660 gm / 3.6 lbs and dwarfs the Nikkor PC 28mm f/3.5 it sits next to. The Nikon has a 72mm filter size, so that should offer a visual size comparison. I had no idea what I could possibly use it for - if anything - but apparently it really can be adapted for camera use by a bit of custom fabricating. I'm not sure if I'm prepared to go that route, but at $11.99 plus shipping, it was easy on the wallet, so it may get some later attention if there's some optical magic wrapped up inside.
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on Jun 30, 2021 21:08:35 GMT
Posted: Jun 30, 2021 21:08:35 GMT
What a fascinating find! I do hope you get around to mounting it on a camera as it will be fascinating to discover what sort of images it can produce...
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on Jun 30, 2021 21:56:52 GMT
Last Edit: Jun 30, 2021 22:04:06 GMT by xkaes
I vote for the machine theory. It's way to big and heavy for 99.44% of all large format cameras and shutters. It was probably meant to be used without an aperture. Probably the only thing that could vary would be the distance (perhaps not), and the light/exposure time. Does it have a thread on the rear? What's the diameter/f-number? Good find at only $4 per pound. It's still a lightweight when compared to the Fujinon A 1200mm f24 -- which fits on a #3 shutter. The A 1200mm weighs FIVE pounds and, if you can find one, sells for about $1,000 a pound.
In addition, you need four and a half FEET of bellows to focus to infinity.
For the time being, I'll stick with my Auto Yashinon (Tomioka) 75-230mm f4.5. It is 230mm, after all.
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on Jul 1, 2021 10:34:50 GMT
Last Edit: Jul 1, 2021 11:12:00 GMT by lumiworx
xkaes ... I pulled out my calipers to measure it. Barrel height/length is 106.5mm / 4.196 inches, and the diameter is 93.5mm / 3.68 inches. The lens is marked as 1:4.5, but I won't assume that's the stop value or speed, as it could refer to it's magnification level, if it is in fact a copy type lens. The inner barrel has no threads at the inside edge, but there are recessed threads at about a 10mm depth that accept the threaded rings to hold in both sets of lens groups. Both ends have 2 small spanner slots in the rings for assembly. There's no slot for Waterhouse stops, or anything that looks accessible for aperture settings, and from the wear marks on the outer barrel, I'll assume it was clamped into another assembly for mounting and focusing - if it had any adjustments at all. I suspect that this lens will need to be measured like I did for the brass rapid rectilinear lens I sold last year. Using a white wall as a film plate that's opposite incoming sunlight, I measured the distance from the rear edge of the lens to the wall surface once I got an in-focus (reversed) image to project onto the wall through the lens. That gives the focus distance in inches (in my case, it was 10 1/2"), and as I understand it, that would permit a full image on a large format 8x10 view camera. Once the light gets stronger today, I'll give it a try and see what I can measure. After a bit more digging I found someone else who bought one of these, and essentially did something similar in measurements, and temporarily put it on a view camera and took photos with it. It's hard to know for sure whether the vignetting it produced was a result of loose placement without any real lens mount, or if the lens didn't have enough of an image circle to cover the full plate size. I did notice a couple of things that are worth mentioning. There are 6 reflections when looking through the lens, so I'll assume it's a mirrored set of 3 elements in 2 groups. Without disassembly there's no way to confirm that, or if any of them are cemented to alter the reflection count and grouping. It is multi-coated on both ends, but oddly, the middle reflection of each group is colorless, with the top one being purple, and the lowest as amber. That might reflect (pun intended) what type of lens this is, and where it would or wouldn't be used.
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on Jul 1, 2021 12:17:12 GMT
Posted: Jul 1, 2021 12:17:12 GMT
A quick measurement with a framing square shows the focus distance is 7 1/2 inches, but that also means that the image circle is slightly under 8 inches. Keep in mind that I'm doing the measurement without the aid of any baffles or barrel tubing, so I'm guessing at where the edge of the circle seems to be. If that's close to correct, then I'm wondering where it might work as a large format lens. I'll try it as a free-lens test on a Speed Graphic 4x5 once I dig it out, but I'm guessing that I won't have enough focus throw with the bellows to get in focus. Here's a snapshot of the lens reflections... After taking the shot I noticed that there's a color difference in what at first glance was the 'purple' layer, and it's obviously too green-blue to match the purple in the other group. I'm not sure why that is, but it certainly is a significant difference.
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on Jul 1, 2021 13:00:00 GMT
Last Edit: Jul 1, 2021 13:32:40 GMT by xkaes
7.5-8 inches certainly puts it in the "normal" range for 4x5" cameras -- 180-210mm -- and given the apparent number of elements, it certainly seems like a copy/process Tessar lens -- typically 4/3 design. Fujinon sold a ton of these in 180mm & 210mm versions. They were all f4.5 lenses, but when Fuji put them on #3 shutters, they were all f5.6. The BIG difference is that the Fujinon Tessars all had either 49mm or 58mm front filter threads. All of them covered 4x5 easily, but only the 300mm versions would cover 8x10. Another interesting difference is that Fuji never multi-coated any of their Tessar lenses -- just a single coating. www.subclub.org/fujinon/byseries.htm
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on Jul 1, 2021 15:41:22 GMT
Last Edit: Jul 1, 2021 15:57:21 GMT by lumiworx
The hunch that these might cover 4x5 format seems to be correct. After pulling out the Speed Graphic, I did some preliminary tests without shooting any film, just to satisfy the question of vignetting, focus, and coverage. BTW...I would caution anyone reading this and wanting to try the same with a large, heavy, and somewhat slippery lens like this... a robust tripod really is a necessity. A Manfrotto 3120BPro and an Induro PHT0 3-way panhead that I use for most critical shooting is capable of taking on all the weight and keeping things balanced well, but I'd be suspect of anything considered to be a 'light' or 'travel' tripod of doing the same job. There's one glaring issue if I were to try to construct a proper full-time mount for this lens on Graflex lens boards... the lens is almost equal in diameter to the width of the lens board's outer dimensions, so there would have to be some custom fabrication of a new one, and not trying to retrofit a standard pressed metal blank. There's no room to accommodate the locking tabs to hold the board in place without some serious engineering of a mount that the lens could slide into and be secured in some type of clamping ring. The only other option might be to butcher a donor front standard in order to make a permanent mount onto it, rather than a removable lens board, but that seems like it would almost turn this into a fixed-lens camera. Unless... a slew of other lens boards were fabricated in whatever new opening would be created. Seems like too much work to get this one lens added to one's lineup of other, already existing lens choices. Aside from the How-To question, there's hope for actually using this in much the same way that others have retrofitted the Kodak Aero Ektar from WWII era bombers and reconnaissance aircraft, with one other caveat on large format. Since these have no internal iris and can't be fitted to standard shutters, they might only find a home on Speed Graphic 4x5's or similar cameras - where there's a vertical internal focal plane shutter - or on a standard view camera that can make use of 'bulb' timing on slower film. The linked forum post from earlier suggests it's possible to make these work on 35mm, in much the same way a projector lens is adapted, and I suspect the same would work for medium format too. So... here's the pudding and proof... There's internal reflection in the ground glass shot from the outer shell of the focusing hood, so it looks like there's vignetting, but there isn't. My eyes don't judge the aperture on the Tominon at f/4.5 either. It seems at least a stop faster than the Kodak 127mm f/4.7. That's one of the 'kit' lenses on this model, and what was mounted before swapping out to the Tominon test fit. There are a few more shots posted to a gallery in the testbed that expand on these 2, and shows the view from the 127mm
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on Jul 1, 2021 16:03:28 GMT
Posted: Jul 1, 2021 16:03:28 GMT
One last note... The test with the Tominon on the Speed Graphic confirms the possibility for focusing at or near infinity, but it was much too windy to risk trying close focusing out in the open instead of under the shelter of a balcony. That test will have to wait for a calmer day, but I'm fairly sure it will do just fine.
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on Jul 1, 2021 16:39:13 GMT
Posted: Jul 1, 2021 16:39:13 GMT
Although it may not fit on a Wista-sized board, there are plenty of 4x5 cameras with larger 4x4", etc. boards that would work with minor modification. And even a smaller board could be used with a small extension cone. I see the bigger problems as the sheer weight on the front standard -- and keeping it parallel. Also, the resolution would undoubtedly improve with an aperture of some sort -- even a simple Waterhouse stop -- BUT open all the way should be great for portrait, etc. work!!! Is there a filter thread on the front by any chance? I have a Mamiya 37mm fisheye permanently attached to a Wista board. It has a Seiko shutter built in. Produces a circular which fits perfectly on 4x5 film: www.subclub.org/fujinon/gonefishin.pdf
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on Jul 2, 2021 4:41:23 GMT
Last Edit: Jul 2, 2021 4:43:14 GMT by lumiworx
For the moment, I have more than a few projects on my plate. If I had parts or gear on hand that could be used without a ton of work or cash I'd be tempted to add another project in the line, but it seems that moving to another platform or format isn't in the cards - just for the sake of shooting with this Tominon. I'll leave everything percolating on the back burner and see what my background processing can come up with for a later date.
I've got a few projector lens projects that are already in the works, and one of them will require a fair amount of cash for custom machining if I decide to keep going towards a permanent mounting solution and find a capable shop to do the work. It would have a place on both my 35mm gear and on my Bronicas, so there's a better chance that it will get some actual use. I've had the Graflex and all the right goodies for using it for quite awhile, and it's sat on the shelf after finishing the initial rescue and cleanup. That tells me that adding the Tominon to the mix won't end up changing that schedule much, if at all.
As for it having any 'user' threading anywhere for any mounting help at all... there's none. There's less than 1 mm of clearance from the outer most surface of the back or front element to the intersecting plane of the barrel's edges, and there's no clearance on the inner part of the barrel for any type of mounting scheme. It can only be a slip-in and clamped connection. The same issue comes into play to fit it with a set of lens caps... if they don't slip-on to the outer barrel, there's no way to get them on and stay in place without interference from the glass.
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on Jul 2, 2021 12:13:16 GMT
Posted: Jul 2, 2021 12:13:16 GMT
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on Jul 2, 2021 17:50:30 GMT
Last Edit: Jul 2, 2021 17:51:48 GMT by lumiworx
Thanks for the link xkaes - I've been adapting non-35mm camera lenses for years, so it's not really a new technique for me... Top row: Dimaron 100mm 2.8 / Hektor 100mm 2.5 / Hektor 85mm 2.8 / Colorplan 90mm 2.5 / Dimaron 100mm 2.8 #2 Bottom: Elmaron 50mm 2.8 / Zett (Zeiss) Super Talon 90mm 2.5 / Elmaron 50mm 2.8 #2, mounted with E-Mount extension tubes on a Sony NEX-F3 Plus... lumiworx.com/tags/adapted%20lens/
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on Jul 3, 2021 0:29:39 GMT
Posted: Jul 3, 2021 0:29:39 GMT
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on Dec 5, 2023 10:17:36 GMT
Posted: Dec 5, 2023 10:17:36 GMT
Technically it was built by Tomioka and carries the Tominon name, but it's not exactly a lens you'd buy for a camera. It was manufactured for IBM and carries a stamped part # for them, and I'll have to assume for now that it's either a process lens (very large copy cameras), or it's for X-Rays machines or something equally large in film format. I haven't yet found any reference on the part #, so if you're familiar with this beast of a lens, I'd appreciate a pointer. It's 1660 gm / 3.6 lbs and dwarfs the Nikkor PC 28mm f/3.5 it sits next to. The Nikon has a 72mm filter size, so that should offer a visual size comparison. I had no idea what I could possibly use it for - if anything - but apparently it really can be adapted for camera use by a bit of custom fabricating. I'm not sure if I'm prepared to go that route, but at $11.99 plus shipping, it was easy on the wallet, so it may get some later attention if there's some optical magic wrapped up inside. Because I'm covering all Tomioka-made industrial & enlarging lenses I was able to find any information about, I would love to also include your giant Tominon lens in there. That's why I wanted to ask you if it would be okay to include some of your shots and findings you shared of course with credit to your name + a link to this thread and the gallery on your website? I would really appreciate it!
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on Dec 6, 2023 17:03:40 GMT
Posted: Dec 6, 2023 17:03:40 GMT
Because I'm covering all Tomioka-made industrial & enlarging lenses I was able to find any information about, I would love to also include your giant Tominon lens in there. That's why I wanted to ask you if it would be okay to include some of your shots and findings you shared of course with credit to your name + a link to this thread and the gallery on your website? I would really appreciate it! simplejoy ... Please feel free to use whatever you might need. I can't selectively turn on downloads for specific visitors/users to the test bed gallery, but browse to the gallery album to select individual photos... then use the 3-dot menu (...) to select "Full Photo", and use a mouse left-click 'save as' to copy them locally.
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