Group: Moderator
Post: 2,039 (562 liked)
Join date: April 2014
Status: Long, long time Contax and Yashica user; glad to be here and hope to contribute.
|
|
on Nov 23, 2020 15:16:28 GMT
Posted: Nov 23, 2020 15:16:28 GMT
This is increasingly hard to find but here we have two unused cassettes of Yashica atoron X 100ASA B&W film from around 1970. Atoron film 1970I think there may be a couple of atoron sets for auction which contain some film but it took me a while to find original, unused film in its branded packaging for sale on its own. I was not aware of the yellow and blue branding (somewhat un-Yashica-like) for the film; it's reminiscent of some Ektachrome branding, even though the film's black and white? Does anyone here know why atoron was a lower case brand-name with a non-Yashica style of font?
|
|
Group: Administrator
Post: 770 (71 liked)
Join date: August 2016
Status:
|
|
on Nov 23, 2020 16:58:54 GMT
Posted: Nov 23, 2020 16:58:54 GMT
That's an interesting hysterical -- OOPS, I mean historical -- point. Who knows what was going on?
Minolta, and others, did the same sort of thing. Minolta's first SLR, for example, was the SR-2. It was later that they came out with the SR-1. They seem to have had a fascination with the numbers "2" AND "7".
Anyway, you should put these cassettes in a time capsule.
|
|
Group: Administrator
Post: 1,370 (301 liked)
Join date: February 2017
Status: Failed treatment for L.B.A. and G.A.S,
|
|
on Nov 23, 2020 23:05:28 GMT
Posted: Nov 23, 2020 23:05:28 GMT
Of all the vintage (and expired) camera maker branded film I have, it's all for subminiture cameras - with most being Yashica branded, and 1 box each of of Minox and a respooled Kodak stock from "FR Corporation", as one of their US suppliers at the time. The Unifilm carts in the box are slightly different than the single cartridge too. The boxed versions have no labels on the blackout container... just the "ASA 100D" printed on the orange sealing tape. From what I've been able to dig up, the Unifilm stock was only color print film, in 20 or 36 exposure rolls. Considering the usual sources in the 50's/60's/70's, I wonder if major camera companies back then wanted to invest a massive amount of money to produce their own film stock in-house. Slitting, constructing cartridges, and packaging film under a maker's brand would be a different matter, and just like the "respooled by FR Corporation" 16EE film, it seems far more likely to me that Yashica would have contracted out for a 3rd party to produce their branded film from Kodak, Fuji, Agfa, or (more likely) Konica film stock. In a time when Japanese companies always preffered doing business with other Japanese firms, it's less likely it would have been primarily Kodak or Agfa stock, over someone 'local'. I also recall reading something quite some time ago, that Konica was a major film rebrander and wholesaler as far back as the early 1900's, and had a huge share of the 'white label' market for the pre-rolled bulk film bought by portrait studios, editorial shooters, newsrooms, and wedding photographers from the 1950's till the early 2000's. Film box color schemes may have changed according to who was doing the packaging, but the inside-the-box items seem to be consistant when it comes to the mini burlap sacks and mailer tags. Logos may have been mandated by Yashica to match whatever their current style was, but colors on gear boxes seemed to evolve between successive model changes, and it's possible that film boxes may have followed the same trend. The first "atoron" was in lower case letters, but that changed with the ATORON Electro model, where everything went to upper case, just like the CONTAX brands. It's possible that the upper/lower case change in model names, and the color scheme changed at the same time. There was no change in the cartridge itself that I know of, but they still may have prefered to distinguish the hardware differences with new, updated colors when new camera models were released. If that holds true biggles3 , then I'm guessing your carts may have been produced for the 1st model, sometime in the mid to late 60's. Is there an expiration date stamped on the box? There's one exception to all upper case use that I came across, and that was in dealer literature. A 1970's set of pages from the distributor IMC (Interphoto) refers to the film stocks they'll sell by using proper-case, as "Unifilm f/ Atoron" on the last page, under 'Accessories'.
|
|
Group: Administrator
Post: 1,370 (301 liked)
Join date: February 2017
Status: Failed treatment for L.B.A. and G.A.S,
|
|
on Nov 23, 2020 23:29:05 GMT
Posted: Nov 23, 2020 23:29:05 GMT
Almost forgot :) ... The only real definition I found for the word "atoron", was a spanish term, for " traffic jam", or "el atoron" as "getting stuck", like 'jammed up'. Otherwise, "El Atoron", is a small chain of Mexican taco restuarants in Texas. Doesn't make me want to do lunch there, after finding out what it means!
|
|
Group: Moderator
Post: 2,039 (562 liked)
Join date: April 2014
Status: Long, long time Contax and Yashica user; glad to be here and hope to contribute.
|
|
on Nov 24, 2020 2:32:37 GMT
Posted: Nov 24, 2020 2:32:37 GMT
Hi lumiworx,
Thank you very much for the information and piccie.
The 'develop by' date is December 1970 so I'm pretty sure you're right about this being a film made prior to the introduction of the Atoron Electro.
One thing I found intriguing in the catalogue for which you kindly provided the link was the listing of a ST-9 tripod. I've seen references to this as a 'tripod/grip adapter' which sounds like the ST-7 with which we're more familiar. I've never come across the ST-9 BUT I do have a boxed 'atoron MINI-POD WITH ADAPTER' which I'll take a photo of and post here shortly. If you are correct about the camera's logo, then this must pre-date the ST-9 and begs the question as to why they needed to add an additional miniature tripod when they already had one; perhaps the ST-9 is simply a re-badged atoron Mini-Pod?
I love the fact that 50 years on, we're still learning about Yashica's range of photographic equipment.
|
|
Group: Moderator
Post: 2,039 (562 liked)
Join date: April 2014
Status: Long, long time Contax and Yashica user; glad to be here and hope to contribute.
|
|
on Nov 24, 2020 23:01:18 GMT
Posted: Nov 24, 2020 23:01:18 GMT
Of all the vintage (and expired) camera maker branded film I have, it's all for subminiture cameras - with most being Yashica branded, and 1 box each of of Minox and a respooled Kodak stock from "FR Corporation", as one of their US suppliers at the time. The Unifilm carts in the box are slightly different than the single cartridge too. The boxed versions have no labels on the blackout container... just the "ASA 100D" printed on the orange sealing tape. From what I've been able to dig up, the Unifilm stock was only color print film, in 20 or 36 exposure rolls. Considering the usual sources in the 50's/60's/70's, I wonder if major camera companies back then wanted to invest a massive amount of money to produce their own film stock in-house. Slitting, constructing cartridges, and packaging film under a maker's brand would be a different matter, and just like the "respooled by FR Corporation" 16EE film, it seems far more likely to me that Yashica would have contracted out for a 3rd party to produce their branded film from Kodak, Fuji, Agfa, or (more likely) Konica film stock. In a time when Japanese companies always preffered doing business with other Japanese firms, it's less likely it would have been primarily Kodak or Agfa stock, over someone 'local'. I also recall reading something quite some time ago, that Konica was a major film rebrander and wholesaler as far back as the early 1900's, and had a huge share of the 'white label' market for the pre-rolled bulk film bought by portrait studios, editorial shooters, newsrooms, and wedding photographers from the 1950's till the early 2000's. Film box color schemes may have changed according to who was doing the packaging, but the inside-the-box items seem to be consistant when it comes to the mini burlap sacks and mailer tags. Logos may have been mandated by Yashica to match whatever their current style was, but colors on gear boxes seemed to evolve between successive model changes, and it's possible that film boxes may have followed the same trend. The first "atoron" was in lower case letters, but that changed with the ATORON Electro model, where everything went to upper case, just like the CONTAX brands. It's possible that the upper/lower case change in model names, and the color scheme changed at the same time. There was no change in the cartridge itself that I know of, but they still may have prefered to distinguish the hardware differences with new, updated colors when new camera models were released. If that holds true biggles3 , then I'm guessing your carts may have been produced for the 1st model, sometime in the mid to late 60's. Is there an expiration date stamped on the box? There's one exception to all upper case use that I came across, and that was in dealer literature. A 1970's set of pages from the distributor IMC (Interphoto) refers to the film stocks they'll sell by using proper-case, as "Unifilm f/ Atoron" on the last page, under 'Accessories'. Hello again lumiworx, I just spotted a listing for some more ATORON ULTRAMINIATURE B&W film under the Yashica brand which referred to it as: Factory Fresh Eastman Kodak Film Cut and Spooled by Yashica Inc. N.Y., U.S.A. I think I can see the same on your Yashica 16 film box.
|
|
Group: Administrator
Post: 1,370 (301 liked)
Join date: February 2017
Status: Failed treatment for L.B.A. and G.A.S,
|
|
on Nov 25, 2020 6:43:12 GMT
Last Edit: Nov 25, 2020 7:08:38 GMT by lumiworx
biggles3 ... You're correct about the printing on the Y16 film box. It is repacked Kodak B&W. Now I'm wondering about some things, and they may be dependant on the sales region, and not just Yashica's country of origin. A little background.... I looked up the trademark for Unifilm, and it was registered (1966) and granted (1968) to a US company in Brooklyn. The company was founded by the inventor of a compact and patented all-in-one film cartridge, where the feed and take-up spool are inside a pre-spaced enclosure that drops into place. (Sound familiar?) If Orests Berlings' cartridge is licensed by Yashica (I think that's a given at this point) - with dimensional modifications to work with the Y16/16EE, and the atoron/ATORON Electro cameras - and is filled by his company in N.Y. with either color or B&W Kodak stock, then it's a 2 for 1 deal that covers all of the Americas for any film fulfillment needs. If the cartridges are supplied to other 3rd party packagers to load with their own particular stock, then Unifilm could be a cartridge parts supplier, if Yashica didn't want to take on the task of manufacturing their own film cans from his design. All the red and blue Unifilm boxes have a printed tag line about it containing either color or B&W film, with an area reserved for stamped details on film types and batch numbers. When outer boxes are ambiguous about what's inside, there's a possibility that Konica or Fuji could have provided their stock for the Asia Pacific region, and/or Agfa for Europe, so that each region could get familiar film stock in a pre-packed cartridge, and in factory fresh batches. There's also a question on where they get developed too. All of the Unifilm carts I have, that still have their mailers, have US addresses in New York for the lab they'll get sent to. Does your older atoron box still have it's little drawstring bag and/or label that can provide some insight on what labs are used outside the US? I can't imagine world-wide users sending every single roll to the US for development. Again - it's all speculation - but seems to be reasonable enough to consider. On the ST-9... I don't have a box for it, and I'm not sure if it has a model # stamped on it somewhere, but I do have a tabletop tripod and it's matching 90 degree flip bracket that's specifically built for the original atoron camera. It will fit either model, but it's finished in the same satin chrome as the original, but both cameras have identical placement of the mount hole so it works for both. I assume that's an ST-9 and it's adapter. I also have the copy stand for the Atoron Electro, but I can't imagine that would be the same part. That's not even listed in the dealer pages at all as a 'copy stand', so I'm not sure when/where it showed up in relation to the camera's release dates. I have one more photo to add that's related to the topic of submin film, but I have to experiment a bit before it will be ready. :)
|
|
Group: Moderator
Post: 2,039 (562 liked)
Join date: April 2014
Status: Long, long time Contax and Yashica user; glad to be here and hope to contribute.
|
|
on Nov 25, 2020 11:56:27 GMT
Posted: Nov 25, 2020 11:56:27 GMT
biggles3 ... You're correct about the printing on the Y16 film box. It is repacked Kodak B&W. Now I'm wondering about some things, and they may be dependant on the sales region, and not just Yashica's country of origin. A little background.... I looked up the trademark for Unifilm, and it was registered (1966) and granted (1968) to a US company in Brooklyn. The company was founded by the inventor of a compact and patented all-in-one film cartridge, where the feed and take-up spool are inside a pre-spaced enclosure that drops into place. (Sound familiar?) If Orests Berlings' cartridge is licensed by Yashica (I think that's a given at this point) - with dimensional modifications to work with the Y16/16EE, and the atoron/ATORON Electro cameras - and is filled by his company in N.Y. with either color or B&W Kodak stock, then it's a 2 for 1 deal that covers all of the Americas for any film fulfillment needs. If the cartridges are supplied to other 3rd party packagers to load with their own particular stock, then Unifilm could be a cartridge parts supplier, if Yashica didn't want to take on the task of manufacturing their own film cans from his design. All the red and blue Unifilm boxes have a printed tag line about it containing either color or B&W film, with an area reserved for stamped details on film types and batch numbers. When outer boxes are ambiguous about what's inside, there's a possibility that Konica or Fuji could have provided their stock for the Asia Pacific region, and/or Agfa for Europe, so that each region could get familiar film stock in a pre-packed cartridge, and in factory fresh batches. There's also a question on where they get developed too. All of the Unifilm carts I have, that still have their mailers, have US addresses in New York for the lab they'll get sent to. Does your older atoron box still have it's little drawstring bag and/or label that can provide some insight on what labs are used outside the US? I can't imagine world-wide users sending every single roll to the US for development. Again - it's all speculation - but seems to be reasonable enough to consider. On the ST-9... I don't have a box for it, and I'm not sure if it has a model # stamped on it somewhere, but I do have a tabletop tripod and it's matching 90 degree flip bracket that's specifically built for the original atoron camera. It will fit either model, but it's finished in the same satin chrome as the original, but both cameras have identical placement of the mount hole so it works for both. I assume that's an ST-9 and it's adapter. I also have the copy stand for the Atoron Electro, but I can't imagine that would be the same part. That's not even listed in the dealer pages at all as a 'copy stand', so I'm not sure when/where it showed up in relation to the camera's release dates. I have one more photo to add that's related to the topic of submin film, but I have to experiment a bit before it will be ready. There's no draw-string bag included with the 2 rolls of atoron X film - just 2 sheets of information on home development of the film. I note too that while the ATORON ULTRAMINIATURE B&W FILM box says Printed in USA, as does your Yashica 16 film box, the older atoron film that I have states: Yashica Co., Ltd. Printed in Japan (the punctuation of Yashica Co., Ltd. is worthy of note as Yashica dropped the comma on a specific year but I can't recall which one). The fact that there was no lab information but only DIY development instructions makes me think this was standard for territories outside the North American continent, and all such film was exported from Japan, at least in the early years for the atoron brand. One other thing I find interesting about the Kodak-made b&w film spotted on Ebay is that it provides 36 exposures per cartridge whereas most atoron-branded films appear to offer only 20 exposures. Perhaps this was akin to the 24/36 exposure options for 35mm film. It sounds like you have the same tripod as the MINI-POD - I'll take a piccie today and post it here so you can check it. My copy carries no model No. but as mentioned, is boxed as 'atoron MINI-POD'. Thank you so much for all your diligent research; our level of knowledge has improved enormously since you joined this Forum.
|
|
Group: Moderator
Post: 2,039 (562 liked)
Join date: April 2014
Status: Long, long time Contax and Yashica user; glad to be here and hope to contribute.
|
|
on Nov 25, 2020 12:36:15 GMT
Posted: Nov 25, 2020 12:36:15 GMT
As promised, here's the photo of the atoron MINI-POD with its case and original box. atoron MINI-PODI assume this is the same as the one you have...
|
|
Group: Administrator
Post: 1,370 (301 liked)
Join date: February 2017
Status: Failed treatment for L.B.A. and G.A.S,
|
|
on Nov 26, 2020 5:21:52 GMT
Last Edit: Nov 26, 2020 5:28:18 GMT by lumiworx
That's the one biggles3 ... same exact tripod (as below), but unfortunately not the accessories that came with it, nor the box. Now I'm wondering about the "ST-9", after finding a page from the Atoron Electro manual posted online. (Thank you Joe!) It certainly looks to be a mix between the ST-7 and the Mini-Pod, and includes the flip-up bracket. It's glaringly obvious to me that I'm woefully out of practice in using selective lighting setups, so rather than wait until I've refreshed my skills, I'll post an early attempt for now. These came to me without any boxes or documentation, so I have no idea of their origins. I'm making an educated guess that they were actually taken by a Yashica camera, just by the branded cardboard mounts and the way they are prepared and reference marked on the reverse side, with an ink-stamped red arrow for each slides up/down orientation. They seem to be precisely identical in terms of their mount quality, and not at all like the cardboard mounts I did early on as a student, where they were crinkled, bent, and slightly askew from my glue job. (I switched to the higher priced plastic snap mounts quickly afterwards) I suppose they could be DIY in every sense, but my gut doesn't quite see them that way. They might be B&W positives, or more likely they're color slides that have lost almost all of their dyes. Some do have orange-ish spots someplace inside the frame, so I'll lean towards them being faded, over badly fixed or the result of exhausted chemicals. Almost every slide seems to scream 'Japan', from the building styles and locale and the smiling Asian faces in every shot, so I can only presume these were all shot in Japan. There's only English text characters used on the reverse, so it's really difficult to guess where they were developed and/or framed. I got these from a US based seller, so their final destination is of no help to get any answers. The Unifilm Atoron carts seem to only be either 20 or 36 exposure rolls. My 1 Minox box has only 15, but there are mostly 36 exposure rolls on ebay, with a few 50 exposure 1 or 2 packs that pop up, and even 1 roll of 20 - but that seems like a rarity. My single Minox box only has the sealed film cart in it, with no paperwork, mailers, or anything else, so there's nothing to base a guess on what labs they'd recomend or use, or where it came from. I'm wondering if the 15 exposure Minox film was the 'starter' film that came with new cameras - kinda like a starter toner cartridge that comes with every new computer printer. And thanks for the kind words too. I'm just someone who knows what rock to look under to find a few things, and far from a fountain of knowledge. I'm learning along with everyone as we go through each discovery, so I'm happy to dig a bit for anything new.
|
|
Group: Administrator
Post: 770 (71 liked)
Join date: August 2016
Status:
|
|
on Nov 26, 2020 13:49:35 GMT
Last Edit: Nov 26, 2020 13:50:03 GMT by xkaes
The genuine Minox cassettes came in a wide variety of shapes, material, and sizes (AKA film lengths) -- from the 1930's on. I've never seen an attempt to catalog them all -- not to mention the Yashica cassettes, and who knows -- Sharan, Revue, Nicoh, Chadt, Fuji, etc. www.subclub.org/shop/minlike.htm
|
|
Group: Administrator
Post: 770 (71 liked)
Join date: August 2016
Status:
|
|
on Nov 26, 2020 15:30:29 GMT
Last Edit: Nov 26, 2020 15:38:41 GMT by xkaes
Here's what little I know about Minox-sized cassettes:
-- original brass; flat-bottom on supply side; taped together; will not fit in an LX or any other Minox with an ejection spring on the supply side. Some versions have small ridges in the bridge to improve rigidity.
-- original plastic; flat-bottom on supply side; taped together.
-- modern plastic; recess on supply side to take LX spring; snaps together; rather wide open light traps.
-- a variant on the modern cassette with slightly different caps and light traps.
-- the ACMEL model superficially identical to the modern Minox version but with very slightly thicker and stronger plastic -- especially evident on the fragile bridge.
-- And, of course, there are at least two take up spool sizes to accommodate 36 and 15 exposure rolls.
-- Note that the modern cassette will actually fit 'every' Minox made, including the Riga camera although there can be 'sticking' problems when removing the cassette and one can find the caps popping off. But older cassettes definitely won't fit modern cameras (LX/TLX, EC and probably AX).
-- I'm sure that the Yashica and other brands have some differences, and some may or may not fit other brands or models.
Any details would be appreciated. I have both metal (brass?) and plastic Minox, I guess, cassettes. They all appear to fit into my Minox cameras -- the IIIs and MX -- but other than the caveats mentioned about, I have no idea what minox-sixed cameras they will or will not fit.
There is, of course, the issue of the film counter and the cassette -- they may or may not match, for example, a 50 exposure cassette for a camera counter that only runs to 24, etc.
|
|