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on Oct 26, 2020 13:47:48 GMT
Posted: Oct 26, 2020 13:47:48 GMT
While browsing eBay after putting a few things of my own up for sale, I caught sight of some listings for cameras I'm familiar with, such as a Contax RTS, described at "beautiful" and "near mint".
Looking at the photos, I saw the base with almost all corner paint worn off, and scratches around the tripod bush. The covering fabric was wrinkled, there were parts missing (like the timer and flash nipple covers), the seals, both door and hinge, were clearly shot to hell, and the mirror damper foam had disintegrated entirely leaving screw heads underneath plainly visible. I hope I'm not being unrealistic in thinking that 'near mint' should not mean the same as 'evident signs of heavy use'.
On the positive side, good film gear does seem to be holding prices well.
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on Oct 26, 2020 14:20:25 GMT
Last Edit: Oct 26, 2020 14:20:39 GMT by bp_reid
Quite.
There's no relying on the use of the 'M' word on eBay and some of the stuff described that way is laughable. Still, if you aren't honest it will come back to bite you and you'll be doing quite a few refunds. I've returned a couple of 'minty' Canon FD 80-200Ls in the last month or so due to very obvious internal fungus.
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on Oct 26, 2020 15:33:51 GMT
Posted: Oct 26, 2020 15:33:51 GMT
According to my dictionary, mint means something like "unused". Scratches, worn off corners should not be called "mint".
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on Oct 26, 2020 15:35:51 GMT
Posted: Oct 26, 2020 15:35:51 GMT
Hi Alex,
There are certainly quite a lot of listings that could be seen as misleading and Ebay is not always very responsive when obvious listing violations occur. And you are absolutely right about some 'mint' items being anything but...
A lot of cameras are appearing for auction as 'untested' even though the relevant batteries are widely and cheaply available; that often raises alarm bells, though, to be scrupulously fair, some of these are posted by people with no knowledge of the workings of film cameras - sadly these are all too often estate sales. And you are absolutely right about some prices holding up extremely well - just compare medium format prices this year with those of 3 years ago...current prices are in some cases more than double - especially for kit like the Mamiya 6x7s, Pentax 6x7, and even the humble Mamiya 645 models.
Genuinely mint condition cameras like the Yashica FX-3 Super 2000 are becoming more expensive; those like the Contax Aria, ST and RX are moving north too and not just for mint models. And don't mention the Yashica T4/5 or Contax T3 double tooth...
And we haven't even touched on 'mint' condition lenses which when they arrive are found to suffer from sticky blades, separation, fungus, etc. But once again, those coming from reputable sellers and in good condition continue to hold up well, in no small part thanks to so many YouTube tutorials on how to use older lenses on digital cameras.
Whether the economic downturn due to CoVid-19 will hit prices soon will become apparent in the next few months; probably, if you are thinking about selling some top quality items, it would be a good idea to do so this side of Christmas. It would not come as a surprise if most of the Northern Hemisphere was in lock-down as we move into 2021; if so, disposable income will be severely limited.
We live in interesting times...
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on Oct 26, 2020 16:23:06 GMT
Posted: Oct 26, 2020 16:23:06 GMT
The 'untested' one is interesting because, as you say, many of the sellers genuinely don't know if stuff fully works or not. I'm sometimes willing to take a chance on those sort of items, if the price is right and the seller's feedback and other items for sale look right.
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on Oct 26, 2020 17:01:35 GMT
Posted: Oct 26, 2020 17:01:35 GMT
Unfortunately, I find lots of sellers are clueless on what 'mint' grades mean. Sellers on ebay tend to be just resellers of their own or others stuff and not collectors or even knowledgable 'pickers', so they tend to look at grading and value based on who knows what kind of scale of their own. They also seem to focus solely on cosmetics or functionality, but rarely on both at once. Collectors and avid or pro photographers usually stick out by their descriptions, and know how to be accurate and reasonable with their terms. Those are the sellers I'd rather buy from, and I'll pass on the other so-called good deals.
There also seems to be a location perspective based on the seller's country or climate. Most lenses from sellers in Japan will tag something as mint/near-mint when there's no fungus or haze.on the glass, even if it's well worn and has brassing or minor pitting or finish loss elsewhere. I've always presumed it was tied to what their expectations are for buying locally. In a place that is rich in humidity and salt air, and where air-conditioned living spaces aren't as saturated like you'd find in California or Florida, I suspect that optical quality beats out cosmetics every time.
A lot of the F.S.U. states seem to have a different take from almost everyone else too. I rarely see anything from that region that I'd call mint, but when new and sealed items are opened to show there's missing paint or pieces, or scratches, I guess you have to expect a different grading system.
Personally, I've put up 35 listings on ebay since March of 2019, and have only used 'mint' or 'near-mint' a couple of times. With very rare exceptions, uncleanable fungus on glass for me means it's a parts/repair item no matter how good it looks cosmetically. Nothing gets any "M" grade from me if it isn't fully functional too.
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on Oct 26, 2020 18:29:30 GMT
Posted: Oct 26, 2020 18:29:30 GMT
Once upon a time, EBAY was very strict about sellers using the term "Mint" -- at least in the title. Things have changed over time -- and something seems to change every month, without notice -- but I've found EBAY's "Buyer Guarantee" to be pretty reliable. On the few cases where I needed to return something that was clearly not as advertised, EBAY refunded my money -- and NOT always from the seller. Most of the time, the seller has simply told me to "keep the damn thing" and refunded my money directly without any involvement from EBAY.
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on Oct 27, 2020 0:22:57 GMT
Posted: Oct 27, 2020 0:22:57 GMT
The only near mint item I've ever bought on eBay was a Nikon D610 earlier this year. It was the kit with the battery grip, WiFi module, and 50/1.8G lens. The owner decided to upgrade to a better camera, kept the lens, and sold the rest of the kit (boxes, manuals, and warranty cards included). The shutter count was 86 when I received it, and yes it did look MINT! Some of the items had never been taken out of their wrappings, and the camera had no markings on it whatsoever.
But I get a few chuckles when I'm looking at items for sale described as Mint. It's a very loosely used term anymore, and I'll usually pass on those items because the sellers normally don't have a stellar reputation.
As for "Untested", I would see that a lot on the Goodwill site, and it really meant they found some corroded batteries in the item because they always test cameras for functionality. The other excuse they use is no battery available to test it. Now I have bought stuff from them that they were quite sketchy on the descriptions, but I could chalk it up to untrained staff not really knowing what they are doing. Sometimes I'd get something that was in really good shape, but after too many junkers I gave up on them, especially when folks started bidding up the prices on items that did not deserve the attention.
PF
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on Oct 27, 2020 14:34:48 GMT
Last Edit: Oct 27, 2020 14:37:25 GMT by xkaes
I too have found some "sleepers" that no one bid on for a variety of reasons:
-- "Untested", "Don't know if it works", "Don't know what it is", etc. -- Lousy picture(s) -- Completely wrong category: "Lenses" instead of "Enlarging lenses", "Digital cameras" instead of "Electronic Flashes", etc. -- No description (my favorite is "You get what's in the picture") -- Dumb auction end time: Like 3:30 AM -- Newbie seller who doesn't "know the ropes" of EBAY selling. -- Incorrect title: ex. "80x" instead of "800mm", "Yashika" instead of "Yashica", "Kinon" instead of "Nikon", etc. -- "Hobby" sellers, for example, people who go to local auctions and thrift stores, buy stuff that they think might be valuable, and list it on EBAY. They usually don't know what the "thing is" let alone how to test it -- and start the auction very low. I've landed some very nice lenses for little more than the price of shipping because these sellers are in it "for the fun", not to make any money.
Sure, I've gotten some things that were in worse shape than advertised, but the opposite has also been true.
My best find was a Beseler Point Light Source -- with lousy pictures & lousy description ("Rusty, unable to test"). Bidding started at $9.99. I was the only bidder. The auction ended at 5 AM. The seller charged $3.75 for shipping -- obvious Newbie -- which must have been $20. It was in fine shape and worked fine, but I didn't need it because I already have one. I sold it in THREE HOURS on EBAY for $1,000 -- thanks in part to a great description & pictures. I still can't believe it happened.
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on Oct 31, 2020 11:42:58 GMT
Posted: Oct 31, 2020 11:42:58 GMT
In my opinion, all the problems described in this thread in general are caused by plain laziness and ignorance, but most importantly the lack of initiative and will to correct them (on both sides, the seller and the publishing service).
When selling online just started in the 90s nobody knew some rules and detailed information was not available, plus the quality of the pics were not ideal, but after some many years using internet with all the information available and decent digital cameras in the pocket there is no excuse for creating low quality listings and, even less, misleading ones.
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on May 12, 2021 15:59:44 GMT
Posted: May 12, 2021 15:59:44 GMT
So i'm actually about to do a youtube video about this and see if i can clarify and add some tips and advice i have learned along the way. Japan sellers are using a system of rating that is completely bonkers and 90% of the listings are riddled with equipment with flaws and defects that are both listed in the fine print and many times not mentioned at all. The whole Japanese used camera market on ebay has become buyer beware and i think there is a language barrier and lots of amatures getting into the market over there without understanding the nuances of the words used to desribe the listings.
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on May 12, 2021 23:42:26 GMT
Posted: May 12, 2021 23:42:26 GMT
So i'm actually about to do a youtube video about this and see if i can clarify and add some tips and advice i have learned along the way. Japan sellers are using a system of rating that is completely bonkers and 90% of the listings are riddled with equipment with flaws and defects that are both listed in the fine print and many times not mentioned at all. The whole Japanese used camera market on ebay has become buyer beware and i think there is a language barrier and lots of amatures getting into the market over there without understanding the nuances of the words used to desribe the listings. xc68000 ... Welcome to the forum! I think it's more an expectation of what the home market understands from Japanese sellers. For a Japanese buyer getting a lens from a Japanese seller, they expect it might have 'some' fungus, more often than it will be 100% clear and clean. What may be important to them - in their own market - is what kind of cosmetic and mechanical condition something is in. US buyers won't ordinarily have the same issues from other US sellers, unless they live in an area that has the same storage issues as Japan might have. Seattle, New Orleans, etcetera, might have problems too, but most of us have and use AC and don't have spores living in our photo gear. If anything, I'd think that more buyers should pay attention to what the details say -AND- understand what it means if you buy something that's not so mint after all... no matter what country the buyer or seller happen to live in. Unfortunately, that's not what happens in the real world in a global sense. Show a buyer what real fungus looks like and how it might affect a photo, and maybe they won't be so quick to buy a "Mint" lens at retail prices more than once, and they can't get a refund when they didn't read and understand the details.
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