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on Oct 12, 2019 22:51:17 GMT
Last Edit: Oct 12, 2019 22:54:09 GMT by lumiworx
Thank you biggles3 and xkaes ... As a point of reference, I started with at least a half dozen generic lists where none were complete, and many of them had errors - some obvious, and some not - so I had to start somewhere. That quick merge of a few of the lists was the basis for the draft I put on the dev site. This was before I had even started to cross reference with whatever 'official' documents there were, that were above and beyond those early lists. That didn't even include the dealer price lists and dealer notebooks yet. Rather than constantly updating the dev page, it's far easier to modify the original spreadsheet that created that table. Once I have a cohesive sheet of data that's reasonably accurate and includes, at the very least, all of the common models produced from start to finish, I'll generate a replacement page to post. Hopefully it's not too sticky of a tarpit, but it's great to find the little tidbits like the Bhumibol Edition along the way. I made a couple of decisions early on about what details the list will include, and how deep it will be. The first thing is not to include the minutia involved in the incremental updates within each model, and the second is to limit what constitutes the 'facts' of what gets included. I don't want to make assumptions, and would prefer to err on the side of whatever specifications have been published by Yashica and Kyocera first, and then modify those details to correct them once I've verified them against the products themselves. In other words, I'm adding to and culling the lists as I go, from the industry announcements, dealer sheets, and press releases - then - from the manuals, spec sheets, etc., and then to the actual item if there's an omission or error. I know it might sound a bit ass-backwards, but part of the process for me is in the discovery and understanding of the evolution from design to market... so it's selfishly for my benefit first. :) The list as it currently exists, is probably 98% complete and fairly accurate. In the event I don't have matching dates for some models, I will probably have a section at the end for those few, and they'll get updated as I go. I may be adding another column of pricing data at some point (dealer and/or MSRP), but it's far from complete right now and isn't a major priority. Basics first, and then I can always add to it later.
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on Oct 20, 2019 22:14:01 GMT
Posted: Oct 20, 2019 22:14:01 GMT
After a little digging, and based on the info from biggles3, I've collected some details on the M35 W and M35 setups. The M35 is clearly based on a Yashica body, with the M35W on a Contax - but - they were both sold as Zeiss microscope accessories and not marketed under their native brands. I haven't found any firm dates on production yet, so there's more digging to do. Every one of the M35's I'm seeing uses the FR-I back plate (w/ film holder) and base plate, advance lever and rewind knob, and is all black, so I'm assuming they were all based on the FR-I. The M35W is a 137-type body, but I'm wondering if it's a chicken/egg story. The Contax MD came first, and the MA came 2 years later - that's essentially an updated MD frame with new functions added into a body with a new top-plate setup- so without a date to tie it to, the M35 W could be potentially be based on either, or both... depending on internal differences in the frame and/or mirror box, if any, for all 3 models. I found - and just bought - an M35 W, complete with the shutter assembly and cabling, so once I have it in hand I can pick it apart. I've also found lots of the M35 versions, but I'll wait on a better one cosmetically before pulling the trigger.
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on Oct 22, 2019 9:56:50 GMT
Posted: Oct 22, 2019 9:56:50 GMT
Hi lumiworx,
Just for illustration...
I pulled this image from a 2015 listing on Ebay which shows the back of the M35 with the date back: FR Data Back plus the Yashica Auto Winder, though what the 'M' signifies I can't fathom; perhaps the Zeiss serial numbers may provide a clue.
Yashica M 35 Date Back - r
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on Oct 22, 2019 21:17:39 GMT
Last Edit: Oct 22, 2019 21:18:18 GMT by lumiworx
I have another Fundus coming in that has this same back, so once here, it will do a minor dissection for a few questions I have. I've also found quite a few of the M35 Yashica versions up for sale that have the "M" winder, and it seems they are a hybrid of sorts. Although the majority of the body section is the same as the plain Jane FR series winders, it has the same right-side 3-pin plug receptacle that the Contax RT winders have. I think the "M" might have referred to 'Medical', to differentiate it from the 2 stock winders. Link to current eBay side-view image for Zeiss M35 w/ Winder M
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on Oct 22, 2019 21:35:44 GMT
Last Edit: Oct 22, 2019 21:36:21 GMT by lumiworx
Also another 137MD camera - you have the NASA version listed but there is also the Swedish Air Force variant with its special trigger release.
The only thing I've found in recent searches that link the Contax name with the Swedish AF, is a version of the ST with a custom grip - with the downward handle that's centered on the base plate like an 8mm movie camera. There's one currently for sale, but it's hard to tell if it's a specialized camera, and not just a custom grip/camera bundle. Could this be the one you're thinking of?
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on Oct 23, 2019 15:02:05 GMT
Posted: Oct 23, 2019 15:02:05 GMT
Also another 137MD camera - you have the NASA version listed but there is also the Swedish Air Force variant with its special trigger release.
The only thing I've found in recent searches that link the Contax name with the Swedish AF, is a version of the ST with a custom grip - with the downward handle that's centered on the base plate like an 8mm movie camera. There's one currently for sale, but it's hard to tell if it's a specialized camera, and not just a custom grip/camera bundle. Could this be the one you're thinking of? No - it was definitely a 137MD with a trigger grip probably similar to the one you found; I saw a photo of one being used by an airman on a reconnaissance flight over the Swedish Archipelago and always remembered the yellow kid leather gloves he wore.
It was an interesting choice for them to use the ST - I assume it was a mix of reliability, the flatness of the ceramic plate and the higher shutter speeds. It is worth noting that major modifications have been made to the base plate assembly to accommodate the triggering direct from the handle which obviously also contains the battery. I'm pretty sure that the 137MD had a switch permanently attached to the remote socket and the 4 AA cells were accommodated in the grip and routed via a 137 Power Adapter.
For some reason, the Ebay listing you found can't be accessed via Ebay in the UK - I had to register directly through Ebay.fr and then found it. Interesting to note that the lens was sensibly locked onto infinity focus - at altitude, there's no need for any other setting. Indeed, if you need a closer focus, you're in deep trouble! Now I know that items on ebay.fr may not appear in searches from the UK, I'm going to keep a close eye on the site - heaven knows how many interesting Yashica and Contax items I've missed to date...
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on Oct 23, 2019 15:53:30 GMT
Last Edit: Oct 23, 2019 15:55:03 GMT by biggles3
Just for information, I spotted a reference to the Swedish Air Force and Contax 137MD on the secret-bases.co.uk/wiki/Contax web pages. They state that it was a CGCM variant of the 137MD that was used by the Swedish Air Force though it seems unlikely as very few, if any, CGCM bodies had metering which would have been needed as well as variable shutter speeds. However, I suppose it's possible that any 137MD with significant modifications might have been classified as CGCM (does anyone here know the meaning of the letters?) in which case, even if it still had the Contax logo on the pentaprism (not the case with CGCM bodies), it may not have been officially classified as a 137. But I do recall the photo-caption referring to the Contax 137.
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on Oct 23, 2019 19:10:47 GMT
Last Edit: Oct 23, 2019 19:11:36 GMT by lumiworx
Thanks biggles3 ... I'll keep digging on the SAF versions. I'm thinking I may need to add another 'class' of camera body to account for the military/government models, as I suspect their might be more than the ST and 137 models for the Swiss. It might be a better idea to include it now rather than later, and if/when others pop up I'll have something to accommodate them. Although I started to compile the list to include anything sold to the general public, these seem to go beyond the cosmetic variations like a Leica 'Luftwaffe' model. They seem to have a significant amount of engineering and innovation included and aren't just a new 'pretty face' model in an existing line. As for the presence or absence of a prism and meter, remember the DentalEye and it's metering and focus/iris setup, and that the 137MD already had an auto-adjusting metering circuit. As long as the shooter points it in the right direction and clicked the trigger at the right moment, everything else could have been automated. It would have been the big-bucks equivalent to a throw-away camera, all the way down to a preset (to infinity) lens that didn't require focusing. Yashica already had all the individual pieces from various products, so it would just mean creating another electronic recipe to use what they had, and put it into the same shells they had sitting on the shelf. One thing I noticed in the ebay.fr listing was the reference to a Saab 105. That was the training jet used by the SAF and according to the linked Wiki article, there were a total of 190 of them used for Military service. 150 for the Swedes, and 40 for use by the Austrians as well. I wonder if these specialty models were issued with each aircraft, to be used during training sessions, and not issued to every pilot and trainee as part of the training program. If that's a possibility, then these would be fairly rare. On the CGCM question.... There's one thing I've found that seems to fit. Coarse- Grained Cell Model, or generally, Coarse-Grained Modeling. Essentially it's a method to visually compare the Optical Density of organic molecules, like bacteria, as they grow over time and then record the results to show/count the increasing number of cells and their growth patterns. Here's a YouTube video showing the newer digital equivalent to the film process.
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on Oct 24, 2019 9:13:58 GMT
Posted: Oct 24, 2019 9:13:58 GMT
I have photos of the 137 Swedish camera, but can't seem to attach the files! Forum limit exceeded. Any ideas?
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on Oct 24, 2019 17:36:20 GMT
Last Edit: Oct 25, 2019 2:30:27 GMT by biggles3
I have photos of the 137 Swedish camera, but can't seem to attach the files! Forum limit exceeded. Any ideas? bobblehat has kindly passed these piccies on to me for uploading...
137Swed r
137Swedb r
137Swedc r
137Swedd r
137Sweda r
What becomes obvious is that although this was based on a 137MD - the 3rd and 4th photos show it is much more like a CGCM and thus was probably classified as such, as stated on the secret-bases.co.uk/wiki/Contax site. These photos have corrected my misunderstanding of the trigger mechanism as I had only seen a shot of an airman holding the grip and taken from his left. Anyone familiar with the many CGCM variants will recognise the modifications to the functionality of the top plate and the blanking of the pc-sync socket but won't have expected to see the Contax logo on the pentaprism. Interestingly, the camera's power appears to be still taken from the standard 4 AA cell battery holder so those 4 sets of gold-plated contacts are a mystery as there are more than is needed merely to trigger the shutter... I love the design care shown by slightly off-setting the angle of the trigger grip to make handling more natural.
We can also deduce that there must be at least 31 other models of this camera from its serial number.
Thank you Bob for the photos.
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on Oct 24, 2019 21:41:07 GMT
Posted: Oct 24, 2019 21:41:07 GMT
bobblehat ... These are terrific! Thanks for passing them to biggles3 to upload and post them (Thanks, Graham!). These are perfect examples of how the designers and engineers at Yashica were able to implement elegant and effective solutions when needed. If it's possible, it would be great to include the photos in the 'Vintage-Yashica' gallery too, with full attribution/copyright of course. Aside from the Swedish S2 listing pictures on eBay, there's nothing else photo-wise to be found in my searches so far, for either of these Swedish versions... and absolutely nothing for the supposed Austrian ' reconnaissance pod' of Contax cameras in their Draken aircraft. That was a surprise to find and read! There's no doubt that these are indeed 137-based bodies, and it looks as though there's a blinder on the eyepiece surround to effectively neuter these into CGCM type configurations. It might also make sense that these still have the penta housing on the top plate, with it being the standard 'home' and attachment point for the flexible circuit boards for the exposure/timing and metering systems. There may not be an actual prism inside, but it would allow the needed room for the circuitry, and even to provide the flash shoe as a holder for a 'wireframe finder' - and possibly to leave the flash socket connected to actually allow for a flash, if that "X" position on the selector knob is actually active. I can imagine these may have been useful in a night-time cockpit, cargo hold, or bomb bay too. > And, bobblehat... Let me look into the attachment limitations too. I'm not sure what's in place at the moment, but I'll see if there's a fix or workaround.
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on Oct 25, 2019 9:43:47 GMT
Posted: Oct 25, 2019 9:43:47 GMT
No problem …. I had a search around my old email messages and seemed to have sourced the photos from a very old German Ebay advert. I emailed the seller and he gave me permission to use them, although the seller was acting on behalf of a private collector. So the copyright owner is a bit vague … certainly not me! I doubt if there would be a problem putting them on the Vintage-Yashica gallery 15 years after the sale!
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on Oct 25, 2019 10:50:43 GMT
Posted: Oct 25, 2019 10:50:43 GMT
Hi lumiworx,
In an off-forum discussion with bobblehat I started thinking more deeply about the unusual configuration of the camera and grip.
We know that the attached lens will have been set to infinity and pre-set, probably to f8 or 11, so there's no need for the viewfinder; the cold-shoe is almost certainly, as you suggest, to house a 'sports-finder' as used on some MF cameras. In all likelihood, specialist high speed emulsions may have been used (film of up to 3000ASA was available then) as a fast shutter speed would have been desirable which was probably also pre-set as is the case with many CGCMs. For example, one of my CGCMs fires only at 1/76s (single shot only) and another exclusively at 1/350s (single and continuous shooting).
That brings us to the question of the 4 gold electrical contacts and the two switches. What controls are needed? Well, I would suggest that they might be Shoot and, given the absence of the usual option on the 137 top plate, Single or Continuous shooting. If that was the case, then the side switch would probably control the shot-mode with a downward pressure for continuous exposures.
But of course, I could be entirely wrong...who here knows a SAF pilot or reconnaissance specialist from the 1980s?
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on Oct 25, 2019 13:09:13 GMT
Last Edit: Oct 25, 2019 13:17:39 GMT by matthiasausk
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on Oct 26, 2019 19:14:38 GMT
Last Edit: Oct 26, 2019 19:26:00 GMT by lumiworx
Interesting ... I am sure that I saw an Austrian Air Force CONTAX at willhaben.at some weeks ago. But I do no longer find it there, maybe its sold. I tried to use the WayBack machine to find it, but unfortunately willhaben.at's search function is broken when done that way... so unless the specific page is known - it might be impossible to locate it again. I'm going to try finding a source for information on all of these military versions from whatever Swedish and Austrian sources I can find. I've had luck in finding elusive details on similar things in the past with less starting info than what's known here. As for the ST and 137 special versions: On using the photos... Unfortunately I'm all too familiar with copyright concerns, as I've had issues with protecting my own rights in the past. That has led me to be sensitive in protecting others rights, so I want to make sure that I have permission or the authority to use them. I'll save the photos and dig into using them in a 'fair-use' context. It shouldn't be an issue if they are included in an article as 'exhibits' for the text content, and certainly all of the discussions and findings gained from these topics will help in providing that content. Thanks for going the extra mile in contacting the seller bobblehat . At the very least I can post some type of attribution on how/where, if not the 'who'. On the possible connectivity question... There are at least 3 possible reasons why there are 2 triggers. The first thing that comes to mind, is that the 'thumb/side' button is an interlock, where it needs to be slid to it's non-default position before the primary 'index finger' button can be engaged and fire the shutter. The second possibility is that both of them have separate functionality, and work independently from each other - with the obvious front button firing the shutter, and the side button handling a secondary function. The third possibility might be like the one suggested, where the side button activates a function that electronically augments the shutter trigger and/or exposure calculation in some way, where both buttons need to be simultaneously engaged to pair the functions. Other than the shutter trigger button, the second could be used for any number of things. Single or continuous firing is an obvious option, or even a +1/+2 exposure compensation (using a one or two position slider?), or even a 2-position motor driven iris control to take a preset f/5.6 aperture (for daytime) and open it to f/1.4 (for night use). It will probably take a previous owner/user to pin down how it works in functionality. I've taken video and shot stills as a passenger in a private plane, but not in a military duty role or as a pilot, so I can only guess at what options an untrained photographer would need, no matter what their role would be. The electrical contacts under the baseplate are pretty telling, in that the functions of the triggers are certainly not mechanical, and that there's more than a single trigger function in use. Triggering the magnetic shutter would only require 2 pins/contacts. Having 4 contact points might allow for 3 different on/off or preset valued functions, with one contact as a common circuit-ground. Given that there are more than 2 contact points, it unlikely that the side button would only be an interlock - unless there's the remote possibility that a 4 pin contact strip was used because it was a handy off-the-shelf part that happened to fit the available cavity opening, but only a 2-contact trigger function was actually needed. All that is speculation of course, without a user's confirmation or a product manual or brochure page popping up. biggles3 ... I just got the M35W last night - complete with the Prontor shutter assembly. Here's the original listing: www.ebay.com/itm/153645039020As it didn't come with any control box, it will take some investigating before I can get it to fire. I did find several of the Zeiss MC 63 boxes for sale, so I may try to find out if any are still working power-wise, or maybe just get a variable DC power supply instead, which might be the better option. It does use a miniature 3-Pin screw-in female DIN connector sunk into the baseplate for power, and looks to be opposite to several of the outward connectors on several of your CGCM bodies. Now that it's cleaned up, the baseplate removal is next, so I can see what functionality and physical modifications there are.
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