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on Oct 20, 2022 14:37:47 GMT
Last Edit: Aug 11, 2023 6:29:11 GMT by lumiworx
There is limited details known so far, so I thought it might prove useful to have a seperate and singular topic on the mysterious "S" series of M42 Yashinon lenses. As it was noted by adr in this earlier topic on the Super Yashinon-R 3.5cm f/2.8 models, there are some anomalies with serial numbers that were prefixed by an additional letter S. Further down the threads were mentions of another such occurrence with at least 6 Auto Yashinon 5cm f/2 series lenses, and having just acquired one, I can now add a 13.5cm f/2.8 lens into the mix. I'm starting to compile some anecdotal info on what differences there might be from similar lenses that seem to be close in construction, but are clearly not the same after a 2nd and 3rd look when comparing them. If you have some of the 'S' series of lenses and have details you'd be willing to share, it might help to illuminate what these really were and place them in some context. I've compared a few 135mm/13.5cm Yashica lenses in M42 mount to get a sense of the standard telephoto primes, since that's the only focal length where I have multiple models of the same type - with and without the 'S' serial numbers. 1. Auto Yashinon 13.5cm, f/2.8, serial #: S1380752 - Weight: 17.68 oz - 502.9 g. - Silver barrel with black knurled focus and aperture grip rings - A/M switch 2. Yashinon-DX 135mm, f/2.8: 18.14 oz - 514.3 g. - Silver barrel with black knurled focus and block/knurl aperture grip rings. - wider DoF window, w/ 5 degrees more focus turn than the Auto 'S' 3. Auto Yashinon DS-M 135mm, f/2.8, Weight: 18.28 oz. - 518.3 g. - All black w/diamond rubber grip 4. Yashinon Super-R: 13.5cm, f/2.8, Weight: 15.94 oz. -451.9 g. - Black barrel w/ silver preset aperture and mounting rings and 15 blade iris (totally different construction from the others, but useful for comparison). -- All Optics: 6 reflections on all, and multi-coated on DS-M, w/ single coatings on everything else, unknown groupings diagram of the 'S' lens, aside from whatever is published for the others. Essentially, it would be hard to distinguish any differences at all between the 'S' Auto Yashinon, and the Yashinon-DX unless they were side by side. One additional note, all these lenses share 55mm filter threads, with the exception of the Super-R. I'll add in some photos once I have them done.
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on Oct 21, 2022 0:16:55 GMT
Last Edit: Oct 21, 2022 0:23:31 GMT by lumiworx
Photos of the 4 lenses, in profile and front ring face... Excuse my forgetfulness in not doing a proper cleanup before shooting them. These and much larger resolution copies of both photos are in a testbed gallery here: testbed.lumiworx.com/#16663105963134 - and it also includes some larger res copied photos of recently listed 'non-S' M42 135mm/13.5cm lenses on eBay, as of last night, 10/19/2022
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on Oct 21, 2022 9:28:33 GMT
Posted: Oct 21, 2022 9:28:33 GMT
Hi Randy,
Thank you very much for this very interesting presentation.
So, with the exception of the aperture ring and distance information cut-out, the Auto Yashinon 'S' and the -DX versions are identical - assuming the coatings remained the same. It is noteworthy that the serial numbers appear to suggest identical sequencing; it would be lovely to find the last Auto Yashinon with the S prefix and the first Auto Yashinon-DX and see if they were sequential...
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on Oct 21, 2022 16:02:06 GMT
Posted: Oct 21, 2022 16:02:06 GMT
Just going by eye, it seems there are no difference color-wise in the coatings from the first three. I'm assuming they are Amber HR coating types, but the DS-M has the first rendition of the AR type, plus it has multiple layers. It just occurred to me that I'm doubting if I've ever seen a multi-coated Amber HR lens before - at least on Yashica glass anyway.
As for serial numbers, if the 'S' is dismissed momentarily and it's treated like a name or model qualifier of sorts, there would only be a difference of 7497 units between my DX and 'S' versions if they are sequenced. If some type of sequencing is in play, that would automatically lead me to think the 'S' versions were made prior to the DX series - IF - these are indeed wholly different lens designs internally. My copy of the DS-M has a serial # of 3115192, so that's quite a jump if they continued the sequences based on focal lengths alone. Since the DS-M's don't use the face ring for serials, they don't have any kind of text prefixing of any kind either, and that seems to be the start of the location change for all later lenses too, where they get moved to the base of the outer barrel from that point forward. Not that any of the DS-M series plays into any reasoning on the 'S' lenses... I'm just 'typing out loud'.
My gut is also telling me that the 'S' series are not merely renumbered lenses that might have been serviced and had repair-numbered rings added. There's too many differences in construction (screw locations, aperture ring type, window sizing, etc.), plus the added 5 degree or so focus twist and slightly different scaling marks for DoF sure doesn't seem to jive with it being a standard repair tactic where even the helical was replaced... so I can only think they really are 2 different lenses underneath the skin too, and it's not just cosmetic. That's far too many changes for repaired lenses, and they'd be far cheaper overall to simply replace them with a fresh new lens.
There is another possibility, but it might be far-fetched to think it's likely. They might be more accidental, than planned model releases, and maybe these were a short run of prototypes and eventually (some) went to market. Yashica was making a fundamental change in the move from preset lenses with the Super-R series in their move to 'Auto' pin activated aperture lenses across the entire lens line at every focal length. They may have needed to do some extensive testing of both optical diagram designs and mechanical components, and chose to start out with the usual prime models to hone the process on a select group before expanding them to everything in the catalog.
The Pentamatic move to bayonet mount in my estimation was a good one, but the market blowback was harsh and ended up in a total failure in sales numbers. That was something I'd assume they didn't want any repeat of, and wanted to make sure the next major step was almost bulletproof. They may have gone overboard in producing the next generation of designs, and ended up with excess expenses and a large volume of parts, and they needed to recover some cash while still tweaking the designs. That might have lead them to introduce a new transitional lens series in at least 3 prime focal lengths. I really wouldn't be surprised at this point to see either a 28mm, or a 200mm 'S' lens turn up, but if there are any, I'd suspect they'd be in very small quantities.
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on Aug 10, 2023 13:26:26 GMT
Last Edit: Aug 10, 2023 13:27:00 GMT by biggles3
I managed to find a near mint Auto Yashinon 13.5cm f2.8 with the S prefix to its serial number; indeed it's only 7 digits prior to your lens' number. Auto Yashinon 13.5cm f2.8I'm delighted to say that I have another S-prefix lens arriving soon which is a wide-angle; I'll post the image when it gets here.
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on Aug 10, 2023 14:06:32 GMT
Last Edit: Aug 10, 2023 14:08:18 GMT by xkaes
There is a very similar conundrum in the world of Fuji lenses. Their best known series of large format lenses are the "W" lenses, but they also sold what appear to be the same lenses marked as "W S" -- which, while not rare, are harder to find. No one has produced any FUJI literature that lists these lenses, and no one has come up with a definitive explanation -- although theories abound, as you might expect. It's possible that the serial numbers might provide a clue, but that might be a needle in a haystack.
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on Aug 10, 2023 14:35:34 GMT
Posted: Aug 10, 2023 14:35:34 GMT
There is a very similar conundrum in the world of Fuji lenses. Their best known series of large format lenses are the "W" lenses, but they also sold what appear to be the same lenses marked as "W S" -- which, while not rare, are harder to find. No one has produced any FUJI literature that lists these lenses, and no one has come up with a definitive explanation -- although theories abound, as you might expect. It's possible that the serial numbers might provide a clue, but that might be a needle in a haystack. You know what's fun about all these issues on serial numbers - our educational journey continues without an end in clear sight... The more we know, the more we find we don't know... My brain hurts.
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on Aug 11, 2023 7:28:31 GMT
Posted: Aug 11, 2023 7:28:31 GMT
I managed to find a near mint Auto Yashinon 13.5cm f2.8 with the S prefix to its serial number; indeed it's only 7 digits prior to your lens' number. I imagine there's a whole other story in how the two lenses that are so close in serial numbers, ended up in two different and distant continents. It also has me wondering if 'S' lenses ended up in every sales region.
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on Aug 11, 2023 10:54:56 GMT
Last Edit: Aug 11, 2023 10:55:31 GMT by biggles3
OK folks, here's the strange Auto Yashinon 3.5cm f2.8 with the S prefix to its serial number. Auto Yashinon 3.5cm f2.8 S It's in wonderful condition and I can't wait to try it against the -DX version; it's of interest to note that my -DX lens carries a serial number also in the 38xxxx series - its about 2900 units later.
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on Aug 11, 2023 12:49:55 GMT
Posted: Aug 11, 2023 12:49:55 GMT
I imagine there's a whole other story in how the two lenses that are so close in serial numbers, ended up in two different and distant continents. It also has me wondering if 'S' lenses ended up in every sales region.
It has been suggested -- without any evidence -- that the "S" FUJINON lenses were intended for a certain market(s). This is not a completely crazy idea, of course. For example, Minolta marketed their Rokkor-X lenses as "ROKKOR-X" for the North American market, and simply "ROKKOR" everywhere else. So it's possible that the Yashica "S" lenses were meant for a certain market -- Japan???. Of course, after half a century of time, that would be difficult to ascertain now, without some documentation.
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on Aug 11, 2023 14:32:59 GMT
Posted: Aug 11, 2023 14:32:59 GMT
Now that you have it in-hand, Graham... if you wouldn't mind, could you compare it to the non-'S' version, and see if there's also the same difference in size of the DoF cutout window like there is on the 13.5cm/135mm lenses? I'm curious if the same component part choices and design differences happened equally through all of the S and non-S models. Not that it would be conclusive, but it might suggest whether these were thoughtful considerations, or random happenstance about whatever type of transitions these turn out to be.
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on Aug 11, 2023 14:54:14 GMT
Posted: Aug 11, 2023 14:54:14 GMT
I imagine there's a whole other story in how the two lenses that are so close in serial numbers, ended up in two different and distant continents. It also has me wondering if 'S' lenses ended up in every sales region. It has been suggested -- without any evidence -- that the "S" FUJINON lenses were intended for a certain market(s). This is not a completely crazy idea, of course. For example, Minolta marketed their Rokkor-X lenses as "ROKKOR-X" for the North American market, and simply "ROKKOR" everywhere else. So it's possible that the Yashica "S" lenses were meant for a certain market -- Japan???. Of course, after half a century of time, that would be difficult to ascertain now, without some documentation.
I wish there was more transparency too, but someone made a decision early on that not much would get released for public consumption about anything they ever produced. I can understand the rationale of 'trade secrets', but after these mechanical and electronic devices make it to market, it probably doesn't take a lot of time and effort for others to reverse engineer 100% of what the secrets were. Once upon a time it might have been easier to divine whether something was designed with a certain market in mind. Leica's early rangefinder lenses and accessories were fairly easy to identify in a general sense, with European products marked in Metric, and items bound for the US marked in Imperial values. Unfortunately there's nothing so obvious with a capitalised S appearing in the serial numbers for Yashica's products. Fuji also had a line of "L" lenses in L39 mount and I suppose those might be similarly distinguished for marketing purposes, but that's not a given as far as I know.
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on Aug 12, 2023 9:20:45 GMT
Posted: Aug 12, 2023 9:20:45 GMT
Now that you have it in-hand, Graham... if you wouldn't mind, could you compare it to the non-'S' version, and see if there's also the same difference in size of the DoF cutout window like there is on the 13.5cm/135mm lenses? I'm curious if the same component part choices and design differences happened equally through all of the S and non-S models. Not that it would be conclusive, but it might suggest whether these were thoughtful considerations, or random happenstance about whatever type of transitions these turn out to be. I'm happy to comply but it may take a while.... I last used the DX version over 2 years ago and have stored it in its case somewhere; with well over 600 lenses to hunt through, I may be lucky in the search but if not, it could take quite a while to find. Wish me luck...
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on Aug 12, 2023 11:49:15 GMT
Posted: Aug 12, 2023 11:49:15 GMT
I'm happy to comply but it may take a while.... I last used the DX version over 2 years ago and have stored it in its case somewhere; with well over 600 lenses to hunt through, I may be lucky in the search but if not, it could take quite a while to find. Wish me luck... As we both suffer from the same affliction, the associated complications are perfectly understandable.
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on Aug 12, 2023 12:37:27 GMT
Posted: Aug 12, 2023 12:37:27 GMT
And with that many lenses, it's easy to get waylaid.
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