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on May 8, 2021 22:54:39 GMT
Last Edit: May 8, 2021 22:56:38 GMT by dalegreer
Below is a ranking of the “rarest” Contax/Yashica bayonet-mount lenses from Yashica, based on an analysis of serial numbers from my collection and provided by members of this forum (especially yashicanoner, who maintains a list of hundreds of serial numbers — thank you!)
A few notes:
— I have no data on the 20mm f/3.3 ML, which was a brief holdover from the days before the C/Y mount. It may be the rarest of all. But I am not entirely convinced this lens ever existed with a bayonet mount. I have only seen examples with the M42 screw mount.
— I have data on just two DSB zooms (the 38-90 and 70-210); all other DSB zooms and the 24mm DSB prime have been excluded, as have all four YUS lenses, for lack of data.
— I excluded the MC lenses and three of the five lenses produced by Cosina (the 28mm f/2.8 ML c, the 70-210 f/4.5-5.6 Macro ML, and the 28-210 f/3.5-5.6 Macro ML) because they do not follow the same serial number conventions as those used on Yashica ML, DX and DSB lenses. In the case of the 28-210, this lens also was produced for and sold by Vivitar and many other third parties for multiple camera systems. I believe any serial number reflects total production for all mounts and brands.
— I believe the 400mm f/5.6 ML was never actually manufactured.
Here are “The Bottom 20” — With known production numbers ranging from 568 to 7,922 units:
Lowest production:
70-210mm f/4 — A7600568
No surprise here, as this lens never appeared in any Yashica sales literature in the United States and is believed to have been in production less than one year. A large and heavy lens, it was perhaps too expensive for the intended audience.
2nd lowest
35-70mm f/4 — A8101078
In many ways a “stablemate” for the 70-210 f/4, this lens appears in Yashica’s U.S. dealer sales catalogs for only 18 months. It was one of three new lens designs killed by Kyocera after they took control of Yashica Co. Ltd. and started cutting costs.
3rd lowest:
300mm f/5.6 — A5401785
This 300mm prime was large and long — the only ML lens ever sold by Yashica with an integral tripod mount. It was on the market about four years before it was replaced by the “compact” version (with no tripod mount).
4th lowest:
15mm f/2.8 Fish Eye — A1601817
The very definition of a specialty lens, fish eyes never sell in large quantities.
5th lowest:
1000mm f/11 Mirror — 5302038
Another specialty lens; the hallmarks of mirror lenses are inflexible exposure, low contrast and donut-shaped bokeh. This affects their popularity.
6th lowest:
500mm f/8 ML Mirror — A5802215
Another specialty lens; the hallmarks of mirror lenses are inflexible exposure, low contrast and donut-shaped bokeh. This affects their popularity.
7th lowest:
35-70mm f/3.5 — A7702759
This heavy and impressive piece of glass appears in Yashica’s U.S. dealer sales catalogs for 4 ½ years. It was replaced by the slower and less expensive 35-70mm f/4. The 3.5 variant apparently was overdesigned for the intended market segment.
8th lowest:
100mm f/4 Bellows — A9103370
Another specialty lens, this one is designed for close-up photography. It requires bellows to function.
9th lowest:
70-210mm f/4 DSB — A7203700
As a single-coated optic, this DSB lens represented a “value” purchase over ML options.
10th lowest:
55mm f/4.0 Macro — A6003734
Another specialty lens, again designed for close-up photography. It was offered for sale in the United States for five years before being replaced with the 55mm f/2.8 Macro, which offered better performance at infinity.
11th lowest:
500mm f/8 Mirror — 520388X
Another specialty lens; the hallmarks of mirror lenses are inflexible exposure, low contrast and donut-shaped bokeh. This affects their popularity.
12th lowest:
21mm f/3.5 — A1704081
Among the least popular of Yashica’s wide angle offerings, Kyocera ended production of this lens in the summer of 1984, just months after assuming control of Yashica Co. Ltd.
13th lowest:
100-300mm f/5.6 — A820430X
One of three new lens designs killed by Kyocera after taking control of Yashica Co. Ltd. It only appeared in Yashica’s U.S. dealer sales catalogs for 18 months.
14th lowest:
55mm f/1.2 — A5004674
A very expensive and high-performance optic, this lens was produced more as a “halo” product than something that would sell in appreciable quantities.
15th lowest:
100mm f/3.5 Macro — A3405806
Another specialty lens, designed for close-up photography.
16th lowest:
38-90 f/3.5 DSB — A7305874
As a single-coated optic, this DSB lens represented a “value” purchase over ML options.
17th lowest:
28-50mm f/3.5 — A7406253
A large and expensive lens with a limited zoom range.
18th lowest:
100mm f/4 Medical-Dental DX — A000659X
A specialty lens, sold mostly to dentists and medical professionals.
19th lowest:
300mm f/5.6 C — A5707809
This is a relatively long focal length for many photographers, edging into “exotic” territory.
20th lowest:
200mm f/4 — A5507922
This “original” 200mm prime was relatively large and long, a holdover from the pre-C/Y mount. It was replaced by the “compact” version after four years.
And now, for the HIGHEST production lens at 963,087 units:
— 50mm f/1.9 ML
— A respectable runner-up was the 50mm f/2 ML at 755,467 units.
— Taking third place was the 50mm f/1.9 DSB at 652,73x units.
Thanks for taking a look! Comments always welcome.
Dale
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on May 9, 2021 0:58:58 GMT
Last Edit: May 9, 2021 1:06:09 GMT by lumiworx
On the mounts used for the 20mm f/3.3 ML... it was available as a bayonet, but I've never seen any estimates or actual production numbers. It may be the rarest of the bunch, if it was quickly replaced with the 21mm. When looking at the tab ring on the mount of a 20mm ML in the photos posted here, I get the impression these were DS 20mm versions, that had the newer ML coatings applied and a hasty rework to a bayonet mount from M42, and then had the old face ring replaced with an ML style. My DS 20mm has the same 'diamond' grip like the DSB lenses had, and not the usual 'solid/stripes' version seen on most earlier DS lenses, so that seems to match with the ML shown in the link, and several ML lenses I have before they finally all got the square/pyramid grips in later runs. If there are a sufficient number of serials known for the 28-50mm, then I may have a wrench to throw in to mess with the calculations on production quantities. Here's a link to an old thread of mine on the serials used on them, and one of those items in the photo is a 28-50 repair barrel with it's own SN. I got it from a closed down repair center, in shrink wrap with the part label still attached, so I know it wasn't a scavenged part. The number on it is later than the complete 28-50 sitting next to it, but it's a lower number than the last one you'd listed in your post. Since I took those photos, I acquired another lens with an even lower number than my first one... A7400694 A few of us have had some thoughts on how serials were assigned on repair parts - whether the numbers chosen were way outside the expected lifetime run, or maybe the tail end of a single run of barrel assemblies that got set aside. If the numbers on completed lenses have SN's that bracket outside the one repair number I have, then it seems like there might be something to the 'set aside' idea. If that's the case, and it happened that way for other lens models, then that may tend to throw off the counts by an unknown number of replacement barrel assemblies for however many separate runs of them might have been made. There's still nothing I've seen to indicate what kind of runs were scheduled, or even how often they'd run, so I'm not sure if there's any way to estimate the number of repair assemblies that might have been done. I've seen other models of ML and DSB repair barrels for sale (I should have, but didn't buy 'em), so this seems to have been a common practice for quick repair jobs when the complete optical blocks could have been pulled from broken lenses and reset into new assemblies that had already been calibrated at the factory. If the same practice for repair barrels and serials were in place for most or every model they made, it get's a lot more difficult to guesstimate production totals, and/or rarity rankings. |
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on May 9, 2021 13:11:49 GMT
Posted: May 9, 2021 13:11:49 GMT
It does seem that the "set aside" idea makes the most sense, based on your findings. I would think, however, that such quantities of repair parts could not have been large enough to appreciably throw off most of the rankings, at least for lenses with production runs greater than 3,000 units.
I've emailed several questions about serial numbers to Yashica's former service manager in the United States. He has overhauled three FX-2s and four lenses for me over the years; with any luck, he will respond to the questions.
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on May 9, 2021 14:57:46 GMT
Posted: May 9, 2021 14:57:46 GMT
It does seem that the "set aside" idea makes the most sense, based on your findings. I would think, however, that such quantities of repair parts could not have been large enough to appreciably throw off most of the rankings, at least for lenses with production runs greater than 3,000 units. I've emailed several questions about serial numbers to Yashica's former service manager in the United States. He has overhauled three FX-2s and four lenses for me over the years; with any luck, he will respond to the questions. Could you also ask him about the strange existence of the 50mm f2 DX lenses which were also a C/Y mount type? They appear to follow on from the numbering of the ML version as I have one that starts A904908xx and my highest is A905059xx - yet they are so rare (and not listed in any Yashica trade lists) that I have grave doubts that over 15,000 were manufactured. |
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on May 9, 2021 19:04:27 GMT
Last Edit: May 9, 2021 21:26:32 GMT by dalegreer
It does seem that the "set aside" idea makes the most sense, based on your findings. I would think, however, that such quantities of repair parts could not have been large enough to appreciably throw off most of the rankings, at least for lenses with production runs greater than 3,000 units. I've emailed several questions about serial numbers to Yashica's former service manager in the United States. He has overhauled three FX-2s and four lenses for me over the years; with any luck, he will respond to the questions. Could you also ask him about the strange existence of the 50mm f2 DX lenses which were also a C/Y mount type? They appear to follow on from the numbering of the ML version as I have one that starts A904908xx and my highest is A905059xx - yet they are so rare (and not listed in any Yashica trade lists) that I have grave doubts that over 15,000 were manufactured. I will. This lens (the 50mm DX) was mentioned in a Yashica U.S. dealer catalog around the time of the FX-70, where it was offered with this body as part of a kit. I've also been looking over the draft list of Yashica lenses posted elsewhere on this forum. I have a few suggestions for revision: 1) The 55mm f/2.8 Macro is mistakenly listed as a 50mm f/2.8 2) The Comments for the 35mm f/2.8 appear to have been erroneously cut and pasted from the comments for the 28mm f/2.8. From my dealer catalogs and brochures, there indeed were two versions of the 35mm f/2.8, but they were a 7 element / 6 group version and a 6 element / 5 group version (not 8/7 and 7/6 as stated in the draft list). 3) I have a curious ML 28mm f/2.8 c that is NOT the same one discussed in the list (a prototype lens with Macro capability). My copy is clearly labeled ML c, but does not have Macro. The draft list also mentions a 28mm f/2.8 MC, but this lens is not that one either. My copy is clearly made by Cosnia (same serial number engraving, same cheap lens caps). I purchased it from Japan, where I believe it was sold domestically only as part of an FX-3 kit toward the end of that camera's production. The kit also included the ML 50mm f/1.9 c and the ML 70-210 f/4.5-5.6 Macro, so all three lenses were sourced from Cosina. Perhaps Yashica was completely out of the lens game at his point and needed to source lenses to go with their remaining stock of FX-3 Super 2000 bodies? I have posted photos here of the ML 28mm f/2.8 c: flic.kr/s/aHsmVzpZeR4) I think I have stumbled across a third variant of the 135mm f/2.8 ML. I just purchased it from eBay and will update you when I have it in hand. In the meantime, here is the eBay link: www.ebay.com/itm/133671147291A Japanese collector maintains a list of Yashica lenses which lists this rare 135mm variant. His remarks say "DSB-based final model." There are other interesting comments in his list, such as notations that some Yashica telephoto lenses were actually made by Tokina. You can see his list here (language translation provided by Google Chrome): www.hi-ho.ne.jp/sbko-hq/YASHICA_ML/Lens.html |
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on May 9, 2021 19:07:48 GMT
Last Edit: May 9, 2021 21:20:42 GMT by dalegreer
Also, the ML 28mm f/2.8 c and the ML 50mm f/1.9 c both have a 49mm filter diameter. Very unusual for Yashica lenses but common for Cosina.
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on May 10, 2021 9:49:40 GMT
Posted: May 10, 2021 9:49:40 GMT
Hi Dale,
Thank you for the corrections to our draft lens list (most embarrassing that 55mm Macro!); I have amended it in the light of your comments.
I'm also most grateful for your information on the 50mm f2 DX in C/Y mount. It drew my attention to the FX-70 manual and I noticed a couple of things I'd always missed; the first of these things was the strange lens on the cover photo - it simply has ML 50mm on the bezel. On the inside of the manual, the illustrations showing the aperture settings use a photo of a 28mm lens instead of the traditional 50mm lens.
If you have the US trade catalogue which shows the FX-70 with the DX lens, can you please confirm whether the ML 50mm f2 was still being offered in the US at the same time? I have Kyocera's German price lists for 1984 in which they're selling the FX-70 in Europe with the ML 50mm f2 and in that year's first list, the ML 50 f2 is still being sold as part of their lens range. At the end of 1984 and in early 1985, the FX-70 is still being sold with the ML 50 f2 as the kit lens but the lens itself is no longer being sold as a stand-alone product. So, unless the lens was being offered in other markets, we can reasonably conclude that final production of the ML 50mm f2 was in early- to mid- 1984. That would chime with the 50mm f2 DX lenses continuing the ML's serial numbering.
Two of my FX-As were from the US and arrived with a DX lens attached which had A904908xx numbers, which are still the earliest I've come across, but I have absolutely no evidence that the DX was being manufactured in 1983 when the majority of FX-As were sold.
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on May 10, 2021 15:18:38 GMT
Last Edit: May 10, 2021 17:18:17 GMT by dalegreer
Hi Dale, Thank you for the corrections to our draft lens list (most embarrassing that 55mm Macro!); I have amended it in the light of your comments. I'm also most grateful for your information on the 50mm f2 DX in C/Y mount. It drew my attention to the FX-70 manual and I noticed a couple of things I'd always missed; the first of these things was the strange lens on the cover photo - it simply has ML 50mm on the bezel. On the inside of the manual, the illustrations showing the aperture settings use a photo of a 28mm lens instead of the traditional 50mm lens. If you have the US trade catalogue which shows the FX-70 with the DX lens, can you please confirm whether the ML 50mm f2 was still being offered in the US at the same time? I have Kyocera's German price lists for 1984 in which they're selling the FX-70 in Europe with the ML 50mm f2 and in that year's first list, the ML 50 f2 is still being sold as part of their lens range. At the end of 1984 and in early 1985, the FX-70 is still being sold with the ML 50 f2 as the kit lens but the lens itself is no longer being sold as a stand-alone product. So, unless the lens was being offered in other markets, we can reasonably conclude that final production of the ML 50mm f2 was in early- to mid- 1984. That would chime with the 50mm f2 DX lenses continuing the ML's serial numbering. Two of my FX-As were from the US and arrived with a DX lens attached which had A904908xx numbers, which are still the earliest I've come across, but I have absolutely no evidence that the DX was being manufactured in 1983 when the majority of FX-As were sold. I just pulled the catalogs to look. The book I mentioned is labeled "Yashica Contax Confidential Dealer Price List #15, Effective December 26, 1983 to June 25, 1984." The first page of products features photos and pricing for the three Yashica SLRs being marketed at the time: FD-X Quartz, FX-70 Quartz, and FX-3. The FX-D and FX-3 are shown with a ML 50mm f/2 mounted, but the FX-70 photo shows a DX 50mm f/2 mounted. The catalog also lists this under pricing: "Yashica FX-70 w/ DX 50mm f2.0 w/o case NEW ITEM" — $270.00 list price, $129.95 dealer cost, $119.95 dealer cost for two or more units. Elsewhere in the catalog, the ML 50mm f/2 is listed as available ($95 list price, $47 dealer cost, $45 for two or more). The DX is not offered as separate item. The next dealer price list I have is Number 17 (December 26, 1984 to June 25, 1985). In that catalog, the photo of the FX-70 has been replaced with one showing an ML 50mm f/2 mounted. Standard lenses available at this time do NOT include the DX. They are: - ML 55mm f/1.2 ($310 / $186 / $179) - ML 50mm f/1.4 ($175 / $100 / $95) - ML 50mm f/1.7 ($125 / $72 / $67) - ML 50mm f/1.9 "NEW!" ($99 / $49 / $47) - ML 50mm f/2.0 ($95 / $47 / $45) So at some point between June 1984 and December 1984, the DX 50mm f/2 disappeared.The next dealer price list I have is Number 22 (June 26, 1987 to December 25, 1987). Autofocus Yashicas were the big push here, with manual-focus gear relegated to the back pages. The remaining standard lenses were the ML 50mm f/1.4, the ML 50mm f/1.7 and the ML 50mm f/1.9. So at some point between June 1985 and June 1987, the ML 50mm f/2 disappeared.The next dealer price list I have jumps about 11 years to February 1999. By this point, there are only four lens options: - ML 50mm f/1.9 c — plastic mount, produced by Cosnia - MC 28-80mm f/3.9-4.9 — produced in Hong Kong by Kyocera subsidiary Universal Optical - MC 35-70mm 4/3.5-4.5 — produced in Hong Kong by Kyocera subsidiary Universal Optical - MC 75-200mm Macro f/4.5 — produced in Hong Kong by Kyocera subsidiary Universal Optical |
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on May 10, 2021 17:32:49 GMT
Last Edit: May 10, 2021 17:33:46 GMT by biggles3
Hi Dale,
Thank you again for the information from your trade booklets.
I have Kyocera's German Contax/Yashica price lists from List 1 1984 (valid from 15 February 1984), followed by List 2 (valid from 15 December) 1984, and then one for each year until 1994, along with various bits of product information until 2004. Like your's, they are a valuable source of information but mine are not complete as there are Contax and Yashica items produced for non-European markets that do not feature.
I am coming to the conclusion that the DX lens was never available in Europe. So that lens remains a mystery: why produce it at all if the ML 50mm f2 was still in production? Their image quality is identical but their construction is quite different. The fact that by 1985, the DX has gone from the FX-70s sold in the US market and the ML is no longer available for purchase in Europe (but is still available as the kit lens for the last of the FX-70 stock) suggests that the 50mm f2 lens types of Yashica design had been consigned to history probably in mid-1984, as you suggest. From December 1984, the ML 50 f2 had been replaced by the ML 50 f1.9.
I need to revisit my Kyocera trade lists to see what other information may be of use to the members of this Forum.
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on May 10, 2021 19:32:05 GMT
Posted: May 10, 2021 19:32:05 GMT
You're very welcome. It's Graham, correct? I have a rather large binder that Yashica USA put together sometime around 1987 or or so with extensive product information. It runs 215 pages, I believe. There are four pages of information on the Medical lens alone. Although I bought this catalog on eBay, I later found a slightly different version online for free. Some kind soul at Pacific Rim Camera scanned it. You can download a copy here: www.pacificrimcamera.com/rl/00794/00794.pdfMy version has some added pages, and some deletions (it was designed to be updated by dealers as needed). Either way, it is a treasure trove of information. Be sure to look at Pacific Rim's other Yashica scans here: www.pacificrimcamera.com/rl/rlyashicaSubHub.htm
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on May 11, 2021 2:16:30 GMT
Last Edit: May 11, 2021 3:37:29 GMT by lumiworx: [pulled out the reply from the quoted section]
You're very welcome. It's Graham, correct? I have a rather large binder that Yashica USA put together sometime around 1987 or or so with extensive product information. It runs 215 pages, I believe. There are four pages of information on the Medical lens alone. Although I bought this catalog on eBay, I later found a slightly different version online for free. Some kind soul at Pacific Rim Camera scanned it. You can download a copy here: www.pacificrimcamera.com/rl/00794/00794.pdfMy version has some added pages, and some deletions (it was designed to be updated by dealers as needed). Either way, it is a treasure trove of information. Be sure to look at Pacific Rim's other Yashica scans here: www.pacificrimcamera.com/rl/rlyashicaSubHub.htmHi Dale - that's correct. Thank you for the Pacific Rim links. I found 2 things of particular interest: the complete absence of any reference to the FX-A in the 1982/3 lists and also the presence of the Contax Radio Control Set in US dealer lists as it is still illegal to use one in the USA. |
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on May 11, 2021 10:45:57 GMT
Posted: May 11, 2021 10:45:57 GMT
The Pacific Rim links are useful. I was aware of their stock of Canon FD literature, but didn't know about these.
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on May 12, 2021 18:56:07 GMT
Posted: May 12, 2021 18:56:07 GMT
dalegreer One other thing from the Pacific Rim Yashica/Contax price lists that I found most interesting is that the genuinely awesome Questar 700mm f8 Solid Cat lens was being sold as part of the C/Y range. I assume that meant a few were bought and a C/Y T-Mount added; I have never come across a 3rd Party lens being included in a Contax/Yashica catalogue before. I note there's one being sold on Ebay right now - definitely not a cheap offering for a 43-year old T-Mount lens...
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on May 12, 2021 21:46:38 GMT
Last Edit: May 12, 2021 22:04:00 GMT by dalegreer
dalegreer One other thing from the Pacific Rim Yashica/Contax price lists that I found most interesting is that the genuinely awesome Questar 700mm f8 Solid Cat lens was being sold as part of the C/Y range. I assume that meant a few were bought and a C/Y T-Mount added; I have never come across a 3rd Party lens being included in a Contax/Yashica catalogue before. I note there's one being sold on Ebay right now - definitely not a cheap offering for a 43-year old T-Mount lens... Was that one of the older catalogs, before Yashica stablished it’s own company-owned subsidiary in the United States in 1975? If so, a third party was distributing Yashica gear at the time and probably had some discretion on the merchandise they offered to dealers. I have a dreadfully horrible Vivitar 500mm CAT lens that came bundled with a T-mount-to-C/Y adapter. Maybe it was something like that? |
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on May 12, 2021 23:11:37 GMT
Posted: May 12, 2021 23:11:37 GMT
Here's another ebay listing with the ephemera text of the info published on the Questar 700mm from 1977. Perfectly readable as a 1-sheet insert from the supplied photo. Without seeing the catalog sheet with the reference, I'd assume it was a 'dealer's/distributor's choice' add-in too. If I had a pallet of them sitting unsold, I'd push them to any takers I could find. |
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